Oral History with Scott Beadle, February 27, 2019 (Ms2019-001)

Ms2019-001

Narrator: Scott Beadle

Interviewer: Joe Forte

Videographer: Slade Lellock

Date of Interview: February 27, 2019

Transcribed by: Kathryn Walters, June 3, 2019

Audit-edited by: Clay Adkins, August 29th, 2019

Final edited by: Anthony Wright de Hernandez, October 4, 2019

Joe Forte: Okay, my name is Joe Forte. I will be functioning in the role of interviewer for an oral history recording session in a series commemorating the fortieth anniversary of Denim Day, a Virginia Tech Gay Student Alliance (GSA) sponsored event from 1979. The narrator for this oral history today will be Scott Beadle. We are on Virginia Tech campus on the second floor of Newman Library. It's ten o'clock on February 27th, Wednesday. Scott, would you introduce yourself.

Scott Beadle: Sure, my full name is Marshall Scott Beadle, and I was born July 29, 1960 in Washington D.C. I grew up in Woodbridge, Virginia where I spent most of my childhood. Decided to come to Virginia Tech for a coupla reasons. One, I 1:00had visited the campus with my father and fell in love with the campus. Two, I wanted to go into engineering, and no better school at that time for engineering than Virginia Tech. So I applied, accepted, and I attended Virginia Tech from 1978 to 1982. I guess like some college students I struggled with my major. Do I really wanna do this for the rest of my life? So, halfway through my engineering studies I switched to theater, which actually was very rewarding because my last two years at Virginia Tech all I did was take theater classes 'cause I already had the math, the sciences, psychology, sociology, all the liberal arts stuff outta the way, so it was very intense final two years, so I graduated from Virginia Tech 1982, with a B.A. in Theater Arts. As far as the Gay Student 2:00Alliance. I always knew I was gay. I had some gay friends in high school. We didn't talk about it. We didn't act on it. But when I came to Tech I saw an article shortly after I started my freshman year, in the Collegiate Times, saying that there was gonna be a meeting of the Gay Student Alliance, and we had to call this phone number. Course I was terrified 'cause we didn't have cellphones back then. We didn't have rooms- phones in our room, so I had to call from a payphone in the lobby of the dorm. So I called the number, and we were going to meet- they would meet us, they would not disclose where the meeting was gonna be, but they would meet us outside the colosseum on that day at such and such a time and somebody in a car would come and pick us up. So we're standing out there, and there were about five or six of us just standing there, not 3:00acknowledging each other at all even though we all knew why we were there. We just- that was the times, you didn't acknowledge each other. I don't even remember the vehicle that came and picked us up. We went to the meeting. Don't even recall where the meeting was, and I just remember walking into the meeting, inta the house, and just this sense of belonging just rushed over me like a wave. It was okay, these are my people, so to speak. And I immediately started getting involved with the Gay Student Alliance, and participating in activities. When they raised the idea of Gay Awareness Week, which was the first time anything like that had happened at [Virginia] Tech. That was I believe in January [19]79, and we were discussing what activities to do and the concept of Denim Day came up. And other colleges and universities had done that. I think 4:00Penn State even had done it, if not that year or the year before, so it wasn't a novel idea, but we thought it was a great idea for a coupla reasons. One, it would definitely bring awareness to gay issues, gay people here at Virginia Tech 'cause those- for the most part, those of us that were gay, we weren't necessarily out. We weren't walking around with rainbow flags draped over our shoulders. We weren't participating in marches. It was sort of an unspoken- you just knew. Those that knew gay people weren't out either, it was like, my friend's not gay. No. No. I don't know any gay people. So this was a big event to raise awareness and denim of course being the uniform of choice at Virginia Tech--and I guess all college campuses--we thought, well let's do it, and there was twofold to the choosing Denim Day, and I think the one kinda gets lost, but 5:00the initial one is okay you wear denim boom now everyone is aware that you're gay or you support gay rights which is really what the denim was supposed to symbolize, that you support gay rights not that you are gay, but people were afraid that people would misconstrue and interpret that, oh they're gay. The second reason we picked denim is denim is so natural for people to get up in the morning, it's part of who they are, they throw it on, they don't think about it. Unlike gay people of the time, we got up every single day and we had to consciously think about what we said, how we moved, our hand gestures, what we wore because if we didn't calculate that correctly people were gonna brand us as gay, as homosexuals, as faggots, as queers, and we didn't want that, so what happened on Denim Day is the student body got up and they had to make a 6:00conscious choice about what they wore, how they behaved that day so they would not be categorized as gay, and I think that kinda got lost in the whole event that for that brief moment of that day they were subjected to what we had been subjected to all our whole lives. The harassment, the ridiculing, people making fun of us, the discrimination, the bullying--even though it wasn't called bullying back then. I don't even think there was such a thing as bullying--It was just what people did, and it was horrible, but it wasn't labeled as bullying. I think it was more acceptable.

F: In what way was that aspect lost?

B: I don't think we, as the Gay Student Alliance, pushed that enough, advertised that enough. I think it got lost more in the, how dare you do this to us. It 7:00wasn't as blatant as just putting jeans and saying you support gay rights. It was a little deeper, a little more intellectual, and that was lost on some of the students. I think it was lost on the professors. It was certainly lost on the president of the university.

F: But it was an explicit intention-

B: Yes, it was.

F: of the planners of the event?

B: Absolutely.

F: So, certainly lost on the president. Can you talk about the president's reaction? Any of the reaction.

B: Any of the reaction. Well I was an engineering student at the time, and I remember that day vividly, getting up putting on my jeans because it was cold--It was January--It was rainy and anyone that comes to [Virginia] Tech knows the drillfield is a mud pit. So I got my duck boots. I got my jeans, and 8:00I'm headed off to my 8:00 a.m. engineering class. I walked in and the entire class--all the students--were dressed in suits. Every single one. When I walked in the class got silent. Everybody looked up. Nobody said anything, but that reaction was like, oh. And I thought to myself, don't you look ridiculous sitting here. The women were in high heels and nylon stockings when the drillfield has two inches of mud, it's pouring down rain, it's 30 some degrees. And I thought to myself, you're the one that looks stupid. I had a good friend from high school. I thought she was gonna wear jeans that day. She knew, and she 9:00didn't. When I saw her she said she had intended to wear them, but she slipped and fell when she walked out of her dorm, so she had to go change, and she had nothing else to change in to, and so I just had to take her at her word. That hurt. It was almost like she didn't think I deserved equal rights. I was less than human or not as good as her or-- I kinda forgot about that.

F: But she was aware in high school?

B: I think s- I'm pretty sure. I think it was the first year we had Gay Awareness Week. One of the days was Oh By the Way I'm Gay Day, so you had to come out to somebody, and so of course I went to tell her, and I was like Fran, by the way, I'm gay, and she was like, I know, but I had to tell somebody. I 10:00didn't know who else to tell. And so she always- she knew. But, yeah, her not wearin' jeans on Denim Day kinda hurt. But there's no hard feelings. That's where she was at the time. That's where her mindset was, her knowledge base, her experience. And I don't fault anyone for not wearing jeans that day. That's where we were at that time. When I came out to my parents they struggled with it. It was the time. It was the knowl- lack of knowledge, I guess I should say. Lack of knowledge, lack of experience. And they didn't have that knowledge 'cause there were so many of us still in the closet. We didn't come out, we weren't open, we weren't out there, so to speak. The Gay Student Alliance couldn't meet on campus. We had to meet off campus for fear of whatever, and I 11:00was subject to that livin' in the dorms. Especially after Gay Awareness Week 'cause I was probably the only one in my dorm that wore jeans, but I would come home from classes or I would wake up in the morning not sure what I was going to find outside my dorm room. I came home one time someone'd taken shaving cream and sprayed faggot over the door. They Vaselined my doorknob, so I couldn't grip it, I couldn't get in. I came home from class one day and they had shoved newspapers under my door and lit them, so they set my dorm door on fire. That was probably the most terrifying. Their behavior started changing. I'd get up in the morning and go to the shower - they would run out of the shower. They'd shout faggot. They'd shout things like, don't drop the soap, and I just held my 12:00head high and I just went about my day. It's who I was. I remember the R.A. came to me when all this was going on, and I certainly challenged them I think because they had a responsibility. They worked for the university. They had to maintain, whatever you want to call it, the culture, but they didn't necessarily agree with what we were doing, and he came to me one time and he said, we've gotten complaints that you've altered your shower schedule. And I was like, what? He says, yeah, you're taking showers at different times during the day, and I was like, do you want to see my class schedule, I have always had 8:00 a.m. classes, I have always gotten up, I have always showered at these times. I think it's just that they're more aware I'm in the shower with them now. But yeah, to accuse me of adjusting my shower schedule- I don't know what he thought 13:00I was going to do in the shower. I was five foot nine 110 pounds. What am I gonna do to some guy in the shower, but that was the ignorance back then, and I mean ignorance meaning lack of knowledge, not the, you know- they were just ignorant. They didn't know any better. I had a revolving door when it came to roommates. My roommate my freshman year slowly moved out, when I was away at classes, 'cause he knew my class schedule. I'd come back and I said, sumpin's different, and I'd come back, sumpin's different and he was slowly moving out, so by the end of the first year he had completely moved out. Didn't talk to me. All intents and purposes we just saw each other at night, and I guess when- well there were some nights he didn't even come home. I don't know where he was sleepin' or maybe he was in an apartment with a friend or something, but he slowly moved out. And then after that I just kind of had a revolving door. 14:00'Cause I ended up- what happened was I- I guess- was it work study, was that what they called it back then? That they'd spend a semester working off campus in their profession, and so when they came back they had to be put into a dorm where somebody had already been in there for a year. So, I started- then every- We had trimesters back then or quarters, I guess it was, so every quarter I would get a new roommate 'cause it would rotate 'cause they'd have to go out and work for the next quarter. I don't think that anything to do with me being gay, but it just made it challenging because I couldn't make any friends. Couldn't have any real strong bonds, and I'm not sure people wanted to be my friend 'cause I was out. People knew who I was. Even when my sister came to Radford three years later after Denim Day, they saw her name at Radford, and they knew immediately who I was. Even though I wasn't actively involved in the GSA that 15:00time. Freshman year I was very involved. I was the poster child for Denim Day. I don't know Gay Awareness Week--I saw the flyer somewhere, I don't remember--is it online somewhere? Yeah, I was one of the four walking across campus for the flyer. Very active that year and I became the president my sophomore and junior year and then my senior year I did not run for president.

F: So are you saying then that almost immediately from when you came to [Virginia] Tech you were out to most folks you knew?

B: Yeah and there were many people from my high school that were here- came to [Virginia] Tech. I never really had any real close friends in high school either. I had some, but not a plethora of friends that I'd hang out with on a Friday night in high school and that didn't happen for me, it was a different 16:00experience. I didn't have a lot in common with the guys. I didn't play sports--least not the traditional--I liked bowling, fishing, swimming. I wasn't football, basketball, baseball, I just wasn't good at it. But I was a good student. So, I didn't have a lotta friends, per se, until probably my junior year when I switched my major to theater. Then that was another place I walked in and I just knew immediately I belonged. They didn't care who you were, what you wore, how you dress 'cause theater people had a reputation sorta being out there and being kinda funky. I think they probably still do. But they didn't care. They just did not care, and that's the way it's supposed to be. I mean, it really is. So, my jun-- yeah my junior year--I started my theater degree. It was 17:00my last year as president, and there was a little schism in the Gay Student Alliance. Nancy and I talked about this last night. You had a certain faction of the Gay Student Alliance- the Gay Student Alliance when it was formed, we had to have a charter to get approved by the student body or student government, what have you, and our mission was threefold: educational, social, and political. Which, I think, Denim Day was and Gay Awareness Week accomplished all three of those, but there was such backlash after that first Denim Day, and then the following year when we tried to do Gay Awareness Week again they allowed the Gay Awareness Week but did not allow Denim Day, and I think it frightened summa the people in the Gay Student Alliance that they backed away, they wanted to sort of remove the political and educational aspect of the group, and I was the president at the time, and I wanted to be true to the mission, true to the 18:00people that started the organization, true to our charter, and I said, well if that's the way you want the organization to go then maybe I'm not the president, maybe I'm not the right choice for your president. So that's why I was not the president my last year here, and the group just kinda fizzled away. They probably still had social activities, but they weren't as out there. They're weren't speaking at classes anymore. They weren't doin' political events. And the group kind of faded away, and then many years later I found out that the new one formed. I think they called it Lambda Horizons, and I got the contact of the president, and I reached out and sent him an email and introduced myself, and I never heard back. I was like, okay, for whatever reason. Maybe went to spam folder. I'm certain we had spam back then, right? But yeah, he never reached 19:00out, and I was like, okay.

F: What were you looking for in that connection?

B: Validation, I think, that what we did in the seventies and eighties mattered. A thank you for what we did. It mattered. I mean, we are where we are today and not just because of what we did in the seventies and eighties, but what the people did before us. And that's our history. We can't lose our history. We start takin' things for granted.

F: So you've spoken a lot about challenges, right. Challenging social structures 20:00and traditions, and it seems to me that that's inherent in the educational, the political aspect of the GSA and Denim Day was a challenge to the community, and you talked about it as such. And, so you're speaking of the way in which your personal presence in the dorms challenged what was happening there. So did you to some disagree, even in the personal connections, sort of relish the challenge that you presented as a kind of activism because you're also talking about balancing it out because of personal relationships that maybe you don't want to feel challenged. You want to feel just like that's okay, that's the way things are. Could you talk about that balance a little bit?

B: When I got your list of questions that one question really threw me because I never ever thought of myself as an activist. My sister calls me a trailblazer, 21:00and I was like I wasn't a trailblazer. I just did what I thought was right. And maybe it's the negative connotation or concept that I have of someone being an activist. I wasn't out there beating people over the heads with it. I was living my life so they could see that a gay person is just a normal person out there living their life, and being gay is just a small part of who I am. I was a student, I was a brother, I was a son, I was career minded, and I happen to be gay. So I never really thought of myself as an activist. I just was doing it because it was the right thing to do. We wanted equal rights. We wanted 22:00recognition. We're here. We don't want to take anybody's rights away, we just want the same ones that you have. It's like when marriage equality finally got through the Supreme Court. I had- the C.E.O. of the company that I worked for came up to me and said, this whole marriage thing, he goes, is it really about the word marriage or is it about the rights. I said, It's about the rights. You can call it a banana, I don't care what you call it. We deserve the same rights and legal protections that you get. And he had said to me in an earlier conversation that he admired me at work because--everybody kind of knew I was gay. I didn't walk in the room and say, hello, I'm the gay person. They just assumed, and I came to work and I did my job, and I was very good at my job--and he says, you didn't flaunt it. And I took a step back and I said, you mean the 23:00way you flaunt it. And he said, what? I said, your wedding band. You're flaunting it. You're flaunting your heterosexuality. I don't have that right. I said, I walk in your office, there's pictures of your wife and your kids. I can't put the picture of my partner in my office. I said, so you flaunt your heterosexuality everyday. Needless to say, I did have a picture of my partner in my office after that, and I'm proud to say I've been with my partner almost twenty-nine years. We've been married almost four. And everyone said, well what took you so long, and I said, the Supreme Court. The generation now- like my niece, I have nieces. One's hoping to make it to [Virginia] Tech, so who do I need to talk to. She wants to come to [Virginia] Tech. They've grown up, they've only known Uncle Scott with Uncle Steve. They don't know anything different. My 24:00husband Steve, his nieces and nephews, they've only know Uncle Steve with Uncle Scott, so for them that's very natural, and they don't see anything wrong with it, and they're very accepting, as it should be, as it should be. Back to your original question. No, I never, I felt, had to balance the activism because I didn't think I was an activist. I participated. I wanted to get out there. I've always wanted to be--and I remember this growing up. When you grow up you're playing Cowboys and Indians, all that stuff. We always played school, and I was the teacher, I know, really nerdy--I always wanted to be a teacher, which ended up- I ended up being a corporate trainer. And I think that was my objective with Gay Awareness Week, being the activist or trailblazer as people call me. I just 25:00wanted ta educate people and widen their scope of knowledge, and maybe they don't fully understand it, but now they have more knowledge. And my mom taught me a very valuable lesson growing up. Anytime something frightened her the first thing she did was learn as much as she could about it because knowledge dissipates fear, and I think that's what I wanted to do. When I came out to my parents she read as much as she could about homosexuality, what limited amount of stuff was out there then. When my father was diagnosed with cancer she read as much as she could about cancer because it took away the fear, and so when I say that people were ignorant back then it's because they didn't have the knowledge, so they were fearful. I don't know what they thought we were going to do. Even today I don't know what they think we're going to do. We're just out 26:00trying to make a living and living our lives as happy as we can.

[break]

F: So we left off talking about fear of the unknown cause you're talking about education mitigating that fear. That's what you sought to do, and what you didn't conceive of as your activism. But just to educate to dispel ignorance in order to cultivate understanding and acceptance. I was wondering though, so that philosophy of learning as much as you can about what scares you in order to not be afraid anymore, is that something you've applied often throughout your life, and did you also apply it, from your perspective in this case, like did the opposition, the oppression, the lack of acceptance scare you at all, and were 27:00you interested in what that was rooted in and learning what you could?

B: Yeah, I tried. I remember in high school I did a report on gay rights, and I finished, and I summarized the report with come out of the closet, go into the streets. I guess that was my activism then. I don't know. There wasn't a lot to read. I know one of the books my mom read was the Dr. Spock child psychology book, and I remember reading that, and I was like, like is just crazy. This is not what I do or what I'm about, so it was very hard to find any material back then. We obviously were not on network television. I think All In the 28:00Family--I'm dating myself, aren't I--was probably the first one that introduced a gay character, and I believe she was a transvestite and ended up being killed. I think she kissed Archie if I'm not- no that was Sammy Davis Jr. But there wasn't a lot of information out there. As I look back on it--cause sometimes when you're experiencing things you just don't know what to do--I think my parents probably suspected. I was small framed. I was effeminate. They did things like gave me bowling lessons, gave me swimming lessons. I took Taekwondo, and I think all of that, whether they did that consciously or subconsciously, was to instill confidence in myself. I've always been confident of myself and sure of who I am. I never- I said I was always gay. I don't ever recall a time 29:00where I was filled with self-hatred to the point of suicide which today is an epidemic in my opinion. I never had that, and I think that was because of the supportive home environment. Even when I came out to my parents they didn't kick me outta the house. I was still allowed to stay. They cut me off financially. I came out to them June 15, 1979 because June 16, 1979 they closed my bank account, so I had to take out student loans at Virginia Tech to finish my three years, so I had student loans. I didn't have my own car, so I had to use the family vehicle to go to and from work 'cause worked during the summer. If I 30:00wasn't home twenty minutes after I was scheduled to get off work I got the twelfth degree or the tenth degree when I got home, more like twelfth. I couldn't answer the phone that summer, and if anybody called for me they got the tenth degree. Who are you? How do you know him? What are you callin' for? I couldn't get the mail. They eventually came around. It's where they were at the time. I never faulted my parents. I remember my parents at one point saying well, we think you should get counseling, and I was like, well I've dealt with this for eighteen years. I'm pretty comfortable with it, but if you two need to go and talk to somebody about it, I will gladly go and support you. Which I look back on that and that was pretty insightful for an eighteen year old to tell their parents, and they ended up talking to our primary care, our G.P. 'cause I 31:00think there was still a stigma back then to go talk to a psychiatrist or what have you. So they talked to him, and I thank him to this day. He said to them, well now that you know you have two choices. You can accept him and love him as he is or you can shun him. Five years down the road, ten years down the road, you won't know where he is, if he's alive, if he's happy, if he's livin' on the street. And my father said, well that would be like not havin' a son at all. And that day they made the decision to accept me. It was still a road to travel. I spoke mostly with my father that summer. Mom didn't talk me about it a whole lot. I'm very proud of the fact that even though I lost my parents at a very young age there was no unfinished business, none, and I don't know how many 32:00people can say that. They loved me. I loved them. We knew it. We accepted it. I was their son.

F: So your reaction looking back seems very full of forgiveness and understanding. Was it like that then? I mean cutting you off financially the next day.

B: It hurt. I stayed strong. I've never been one to hold a grudge. I just think that's so much negative energy. People are gonna persecute you, but that's where they are. That's whatever, you can't get inside everybody's head. That's where they are. That's where they're comin' from. If I can find out why that's happening and try and change that. I was ridiculed in high school. I was 33:00ridiculed here at [Virginia] Tech. I just, I don't have any anger or animosity towards them. I hate to say it, that was the times. But, they were just ignorant. They just didn't have the knowledge. They didn't know me, and once people got to know me, being gay was just a aspect of who I was. Yeah, I don't have any hard feelings towards anybody that tormented me. I have nothing but good memories here at [Virginia] Tech. It was a challenge, but those challenges made me who I am today. I wouldn't trade them. It was tough, but I wouldn't trade them.

F: Did you leave town as soon as you graduated?

B: Oh yeah, I had a job. Yeah, I had a summer stock theater job. I actually left 34:00school before the semester ended. I didn't attend graduation because my job started before graduation. Later on, when I went and got my masters and actually attended a graduation was just- I kind of- I guess I regret missing my graduation here at [Virginia] Tech, but it was a job offer. I had to go and jump through some hoops here with my professors, but I was able to get all my courses completed and papers turned in.

F: Yeah. So you were an actor in the theater department?

B: Yeah, I acted. I did lighting. I stage managed. 'Cause the theater program here was a B.A. not a B.F.A. so you had to take every aspect of theater: acting, I took dance, costume design, lighting design, set construction. You had to do 35:00it all, and you worked on the productions throughout the year to get some practical experience. And I've pursued that since then. I do a lotta community theater. Mostly acting, some stage managing, makeup design. Actually won some awards for makeup design in the D.C. area. So I still pursue that, but I like to eat. [laughter] So, even though theater's a passion, eating takes priority. So, when I started my career, per se, 'cause I worked at Wendy's part time when I attended school, started in high school and then every time I came home from [Virginia] Tech I would go back to them, and they wanted me to move into management, so I kept saying no, no, no, no. When I finished my summer stock theater position I came back--waited on tables for a while--but then I joined 36:00the management program at Wendy's cause they wanted me, and I was with them for thirty-four years. I managed the restaurants for five years, and then they had an opening in their corporate office in the training department, so that's where I became a corporate trainer. Eventually went back to school 'cause they had tuition reimbursement. Got my masters in Human Resource Development. So my final position with them was the vice-president of human resources.

F: So you're not with them any longer?

B: It was actually a franchise. It was a franchise that had exclusive territorial rights to Maryland, D.C., and Northern Virginia, so we owned and operated 150 stores. The company was sold, and the company that bought us already had HR training, payroll in their office, so they eliminated all of us in 2017. No animosity. [laughter] Well, things happen for a reason. I know that 37:00sounds corny, but what it gave me the opportunity to do- my husband and I already had a home in Rehoboth that we spent the weekends there. So, I sold my home in Maryland and moved to Rehoboth full time, so I've been down there almost two years now, and I'm loving life. Life is good.

F: You're retired?

B: For all intents and purposes. I've applied for jobs here and there, but I don't want the same level of responsibility that I had. Been there, done that. As I said in an interview recently, I'm not done. I still want to help people better themselves. Whatever that is. Intellectually, building skills, teaching them something to improve themselves and allow them to have a better opportunity and better life. I still wanna do that, whether it's a paid gig, it's a volunteer. I'm still gonna do that. That's who I am. That has been with me since 38:00I- that big [holds his hand out to indicate a low height].

F: So can we step back and talk a little bit more about your life at [Virginia] Tech in the theater and maybe some of the other things you may have been into around campus?

B: Well when I was an engineering student, didn't spend a whole lot time doing much else but studying. It's tough. I was telling my sister this the other day, [Virginia] Tech back then--I don't know what it's like now--[Virginia] Tech back then was kind of easy to get in to, but hard to stay in, so you really had to study. You really had to work hard. I didn't have a real big circle of friends. I had the Gay Student Alliance but not like we were hanging out because we'd get labeled, so I studied a lot, and my one roommate the end of my sophomore year was a theater major and that's how I got introduced into the theater department, 39:00and once I switched my major then I just focused all my energies at that creative outlet. Still was involved my junior year with the Gay Student Alliance even though we didn't get approved for that second Denim Day, and the president didn't let us know that until we were in front of--whoever it was student government that had to approve all the student events--and he didn't let us know they were not gonna approve that until we were sitting in front of them, and then that's when I found out the Governor of Virginia had called him and said, how could you let something like this happen? Find out about all the letters. I read the editorials in the local paper and the Collegiate Times. Guys running around in skirts to protest Denim Day. I'm like, who's the gay one here. [laughter] I don't know if that answered your question.

F: That's okay. So yeah, we could stay with that if you want. Talk more about 40:00the reaction and the aftermath to Denim Day.

B: At that point, for lack of a better word, I was a celebrity at that point 'cause everybody knew who I was. And I was going to classes and talking on panel discussions. They'd have them in various sociology, psychology classes, human development. And there'd be three or four of us on a panel and the class would ask questions, and I liked that. I really liked that aspect. That was the educational platform because it was broadening people's horizons and intelligence, and they were learning about us and realizing we weren't as scary, but then at the same time I remember I was dating an individual who was in a fraternity. Didn't want any of his frat buddies to know. We couldn't be seen 41:00together in public at all. He insisted on it, and we would study together, but he would get to Newman at a certain time, and then I would have to arrive a half hour later. And then I would leave Newman, and he would leave fifteen, twenty minutes later, so we couldn't be seen, in his mind, going to a place together, leaving a place together. In Newman we found a nice little place that we could study in one of those cubicles and not be seen. So that didn't work well for me. [laughter] But that's where he was. That was his paranoia. His own homophobia. And I remember in a panel discussion we were talking one time and one guy sittin' there with the frat hat and the frat sweatshirt, and he just being so belligerent and so attacking in his questions, and I just said to him, you know, you don't really know who is gay and who's not, so you should be careful, you 42:00know, what you're saying. Oh by the way, I'm dating somebody from your fraternity. Well the class erupted at that point. Even the class was startin' to turn on him. He was being just so ignorant. And he slumped down in his chair, but I'm sure then he went back to his fraternity and was always like. [makes shocked face] I was like, good. [laughter] Good for you.

F: Do you know how that played out in the fraternity?

B: No, I don't. I don't. I obviously am not dating the guy that I was dating back then.

F: What was your reaction in that relationship? I mean, was it, he's in this place, I'm not in this place? This isn't for me?

B: Right. I had a respect for where he was. It was different. It was challenging, and I think why we didn't date that long was that I got the impression he was ashamed of me, embarrassed by me. That's not a healthy foundation for a relationship, it's not. So we had that conversation. He was 43:00pre-med, and I hope he's watching this. [laughter]

F: Did you try to help him come out?

B: I did. I did. But when the student is ready the teacher will come. And he wasn't ready. He wasn't ready. People just, I hate to say it, they just knew who I was, and I didn't know I had that notoriety till later when my sister attended Radford, that I mentioned. I knew people knew I was gay, but that sense of notoriety. I was like the poster child or something for the- well, actually I was the poster child on the poster for Gay Awareness Week. [laughter] That was our backs. Nobody knew who that was.

F: Others have spoken of these panels visiting sociology classes, so I'm 44:00interested. Did you feel you saw evidence that you were accomplishing what you had hoped?

B: Yeah, absolutely or I wouldn't have continued them. And the great thing about those panels is we all sort of- if we were talking it was like- we would preface it with, we're not speaking for the whole community. Just like you can't speak for the whole community of white women or African American men. You can't speak for the whole community. You can only speak for yourself. And sometimes we on the panel would have different opinions on something. I've never been an angry person, so I never was angry at people where some people on the panel were very angry. I never saw myself as the activists even though we were all, I guess, activists. I really enjoyed the panels cause I think we made a difference. I admired the professors for bringing us in. I think some of the professors were 45:00even enlightened by our stories cause there, once again, there was not a lot of literature out there. There was not a lot written about it, so this was one way to get the word out, so to speak. We're just like you.

F: So it sounds like then the GSA was, in your opinion, a valuable organization on campus, and also something valuable to you personally.

B: Yes, and I go back to that first meeting when I walked in and that just wave of acceptance and sense of belonging. We didn't have that. Now we've assimilated. We've assimilated into society. I've talked about this with gay friends and straight friends. There really aren't like gay bars anymore. Everybody just goes to bars. We've assimilated, and I think that's good, but 46:00don't forget our history. There's people that fought for that. I was beat up walking into a gay bar one time. Didn't say a word I was just walking into the bar and these three guys were coming out intoxicated. Evidently stumbled into the wrong bar and gotten more and more angry as they got more and more drunk. I was the first person they saw when they came out. So, I think the GSA served a purpose. If you follow Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the need to belong, it met that need. It really met that need. The demographic was so mixed. We had young. We had old. We had women. We had men. I don't recall any African Americans though, but [Virginia] Tech didn't have a large population of African Americans back in the late [19]70s. We would do road trips, and we'd travel up the road to 47:00the bar in Roanoke on Saturday nights. That was a big deal. That sense of belonging and being able to relax and not worry about, oh if I say it this way or if I flare my hands this way what are people gonna say? That's a tremendous amount of pressure or effort that you have to go through just to live your life. And the GSA allowed you to be yourself. And we spanned the whole gamut, you had butch ones, you had effeminate, you had masculine women, you had feminine women, you had masculine men, you had feminine men, so we ran the gamut. We just all accepted each other, and that was a good feeling. I think it served a good purpose. I think Denim Day served its purpose probably more than we imagined. 48:00The backlash and all that was more than we imagined. We've remained hopeful. We would have loved to of woke up that day and everybody be in jeans, but that didn't happen. We're talking about a fortieth anniversary celebration. It was successful. It was successful. It was scary puttin' the flyers under the dorm doors though. I don't know if anyone told you that story.

F: Folks have talked about that.

B: Yeah, just the two o'clock in the morning going around all the dorms and sliding flyers the day before Denim Day, so when they woke up the first thing they saw was the flyer for Denim Day. We had one person that was awake. [laughter] And we slid it, and that door flung open, and he started screaming faggot at us, and we're runnin' down the hall, but I remember laughing as I was running down the hall, not scared, just laughing, running down the hall. So I 49:00think Denim Day probably had a more significant impact than we ever imagined it would. Obviously, the governor thought so to call the president of the university. [laughter] But the purpose of it was gay awareness. We got letters in the paper. We had pictures. People talked about it. They're still talking about it now.

F: Folks became aware.

B: Yeah, folks became aware.

F: So the ability then to assimilate comfortably to mainstream society now, does that seem a very stark contrast to your time in college. What I'm trying to get at is--

B: Well, it's different. I mean, it's different. My time here at [Virginia] 50:00Tech, I found me. I discovered who I was. I think my values and morals might have became more grounded. I had that at home, but it just became more clear, and I think sometimes pride, whether it's gay pride or regular pride, is just all about showin' up, and just being your true self, doin' the best that you can be, helping others, lifting each other up. To me, that's pride, because somebody said something about gay pride parades and stuff like that. I said I understand them. It's not who I am. For me, being- gay pride is just showing up every day in everyday life and showing them that being gay is just a small part uh who I am. So what's the question? [laughter]

F: Yeah, I was just wondering if then the pace of change as something you find hopeful.

B: Yes, I do find it hopeful. We now have marriage equality. There's still stigmatism. I think also some of the advances in technology has made- heightened the awareness of bullying, the gay bashings, discrimination. That's always existed, it's just never been out there, and if people knew about it they didn't do anything about it. They weren't outraged, and I think for the most part society is just outraged when they see stuff like that, and I think that's progress because they weren't outraged when I was in high school. There was teasing, and it was funny, and it was acceptable. It was acceptable for them to 52:00take shaving cream and spray faggot on my dorm door. They thought it was funny, and I remember the R.A. coming to me the end of--it had to uh been my freshman year with the Gay Awareness Week--and he came up to me, and he said, this has been difficult for me, himself, and he said, I don't totally accept what you are and who you are, but because of this year and everything that you've been through with the tormenting I have a greater understanding and respect for you. And I went--internal, my head, my voice said--then my work is done. That's all we ask, besides I don't need your acceptance. [laughter] But it was a challenge for him because he really had to be- he couldn't get down in the gutter with 53:00these other people that were bullying me and tormenting me. He had to rise above it, and it challenged him, and his thought process, so he grew.

F: Yeah, so have you stayed much in touch with folks from the time?

B: No. Not until recently. Probably started about eight years ago maybe. Small world story. Auditioned for a play in community theater in Maryland, and got cast. The cast list comes out, and I recognize a name on the cast list, and it was somebody from [Virginia] Tech who was gay who I had dated for about six months, and we had just lost touch with it, and he lived twenty minutes away from me. So we have reconnected. He and his partner have been together as long as my partner and I have been together. We get together. I have since 54:00reconnected in Rehoboth with some people from Virginia Tech. So yeah, rekindling that now, but it- and it wasn't like I had a bad time here and I just wanted to forget it all. It just didn't happen, but yeah, I'm starting to reconnect with some people, and thank goodness for Nancy. She has just put me back- last night was a three hour dinner, and I don't even know if we really ate, but it was just reminiscing. There were four of us. Olga and Steve and Nancy and myself, and it was just so heart warming. It was just- to rekindle the stories, and what this person remembers someone else doesn't and these people, and it's good to relive that because we shouldn't, we shouldn't- that's our history. Once again, it's our history. We can't forget where we came from and where we're headed. That's 55:00one thing that I know I probably sound weird or something, but I don't have anger.

F: That's great

B: About any of it. It's unhealthy. [laughter] Yeah, I guess I was fortunate, you know, I was not physically abused at [Virginia] Tech in any way, shape, or form. The beating outside the gay bar happened years after [Virginia] Tech.

F: Yeah, holding onto the anger, it doesn't gain you anything over the person you're angry with. It just harms you.

Slade Lellock: I have a question.

B: Okay.

L: We talked a little bit before we started rolling about, you lived in the dorms for-

B: All four years.

L: four years, but had many friends who lived off campus in apartments. How do 56:00you think your experience might have been different had you lived off campus or what do you think some of the differences were between being gay and living in the dorms versus maybe being gay and living off campus?

B: I think if you lived off campus you could have people over just for drinks or just to chit chat. If somebody was seen going into my dorm room--first of all, I had a roommate--who- immediately they went there. They immediately tarnish that person as being gay as well, and there was a friend, I had a friend in Ambler Johnston who was not gay, but he befriended me, and--I'm not sure why, he just did it, and I appreciated that friendship--and he didn't really care what people thought about him. But I think if you lived off campus your social circle was a little bigger, little larger. You could have friends over. I couldn't have 57:00friends over in the dorm because of the stigma. So it was different. I don't think in their apartment they had people setting their doors on fire. Or Vaseline-ing their-- Did that answer your question?

L: Yeah.

B: Okay.

L: Thank you.

F: Were you able to date much beyond this- your closeted frat boy, or was that few and far between.

B: No, I look back, I probably dated. I don't remember having any really long term significant, oh this is the one. But, yeah, I dated the frat guy for a while, and my other friend that I've reconnected with eight years ago. We dated 58:00probably about six months, and then he went off to Canada to do his internship. But that's a friendship that has just rekindled, and we are as close as ever. They've come to our house. We've been to their house. Dinner with friends and hangin' out. It's good. It's all good. Trying to think. Anything more about the dorm life. I mean it was tough. As I said earlier you wake up in the morning, you open the door, you don't know what you're gonna find. You come home from classes, you don't know what you're gonna find. You don't wanna walk down the hall cause somebody's gonna shout somethin'. I just kinda held my head high and went about my business. I'm not gonna stoop to that level.

F: Were you in a dorm the entire time?

B: Yeah, I was in Ambler Johnston my first three years and then moved to Major Williams, which was right next to the theater building at the time, from my senior year.

F: Where was the theater building located then? Is in the upper quad?

B: Performing Arts Building. It's now -

F: Oh, in the Performing Arts Building

B: The Performing Arts building

F: Right, right.

B: The theater itself was in Squires where we performed on the main stage.

F: Haymarket.

B: Huh?

F: Haymarket Stage. That one.

B: Doesn't sound familiar.

F: You've seen the new facility?

B: Yeah, I saw it last night and I tried to get in, it was locked.

F: Oh, yeah.

B: I'd love to go in and see the new facility.

F: You're speaking of the Studio Theater in Squires with the shop behind it, maybe?

B: Yeah, the shop downstairs and the pit was an elevator that went down. You opened the door, the shop was downstairs, and we brought the set on and then they rose the pit to the stage, and we put the set on the stage.

F: Oh. Oh, it's different now. It's more of like a steep seat theater, and the stage is on the shop level. If it's the same place. Oh no, you are talking about Haymarket. 'Cause Haymarket has- you can drop the front of the stage into the orchestra pit or all the way down to the shop.

B: Right, so if they had an orchestra, or all the way down to the shop.

F: Right, Haymarket has that, yeah.

B: I don't think it was called Haymarket.

F: Maybe not [to the side] it's called Haymarket, right? Yeah, down right here on the side closest to the library.

B: Prob- yes

F: Yes, yeah. Yeah, they don't use that that much anymore. They use mostly to the Studio 101 and the Studio Theater on the other side of Squires.

B: Yeah I recognized some of the buildings walking around yesterday, but some of them--

F: And Moss of course is a great new performing arts space. It's not the School of Performing Arts, but they're affiliated and they partner on some things. So 61:00what roles did you play? What plays did you do?

B: Well I was a master electrician for Streetcar Named Desire. I played Mortimer in The Fantasticks. I did a lot of children's theater, so I played Sonny in Blocks. I played one of the swamp creatures in Wiley and the Hairy Man [laughter] and then Frisbee in Step on a Crack. Because back then, my senior year we ha--er, junior and senior year--we had a touring theater compan- children's theater. So, for two straight weeks we had a van, we had the set in the van, and the cast travelled to all the elementary schools in the area, and we get to the school in the morning, put the set up, do the show, break it down, go to the next school, set it up, and do another performance that afternoon then 62:00drive to the next location, and we did that for two weeks solid. Then we got some kind of credits. We did it every Tuesday, Thursday that semester.

F: How wide was that circuit? Like Montgomery County or a little further?

B: Yeah, I think so. It was pretty wide because we stayed overnight in places, and then the second year I staged managed that touring theater production and got a practicum for stage managing

F: That sounds fun.

B: Yeah, actually it was fun. Kids are a great audience. No filters. They just shout stuff out. Yeah, children's theater is fun, and I've probably done about fifty plays since graduating, so variety of roles.

F: Generally, in community theater?

B: Yeah.

F: You mentioned awards for makeup.

B: Well they have a thing in D.C. called W.A.T.C.H. Washington Area Theater Community Honors, so it's like the local community theater Tony Awards.

F: Oh wow.

B: And they send judges out to all these productions. there's over 100 productions that are submitted for competition and various categories, just like the Oscars and the Emmys and Tonys, and I got, I won for makeup design for Sordid Lives and makeup design for Addams Family.

F: Addams Family?

B: That was a fun show to design for, it really was. Because you had to be creative but you still had to kind of keep the iconic look. I was shocked both times I was nominated. There's like five nominees for each category, then you go to the ceremony, and then they announce the winner.

F: So it that the aspect of theater you enjoyed most, the makeup design?

B: I do. In order preference would be acting, stage managing, then makeup 64:00design--I don't know if I can say this on film or not--I am a female impersonator, so I perform here and there regularly in Rehoboth. Just had two shows this past week, so that's where the makeup design comes in and like creating that character, but once again even in that genre I don't speak for all the impersonators. I do it for different reasons than somebody else. I'm a theater person. I'm doin' it for the entertainment factor and creating this character. I don't live that way I don't want to live that way. No, I don't want to be a woman. It's just a character I created. Nobody said that about Dustin Hoffman when he did Tootsie. Give me a break. Robin Williams for- what was the 65:00one he did?

F: Mrs. Doubtfire.

B: Mrs. Doubtfire.

F: So is that the motivation you bring to acting generally, what you're giving to the audience in the form of entertainment?

B: Yeah, and you know the ability to transform myself into a different character, and it's the whole acting paradox too because it really is you, but it's not you, but you had to draw it from somewhere. One of the shows I auditioned for, and it wasn't a large part, but I wanted it. It was called Dark Passages, and the character I auditioned for was the landlord in this old Victorian house. Well he had built these secret passages and had two way mirrors and would rent the rooms to the college girls, so he would stand behind the two way mirror and watch them, and he actually was the serial killer in the town, killing these people. Which was such a stretch for me. Hopefully you don't think I'm a serial killer. You get to do that. I got to play Salieri in Amadeus, the 66:00role of a lifetime. You know to some farcical, funny, comedic.

F: Do you find that aspect of, I guess, exploration of itself within the other therapeutic?

B: Yeah, yeah. There are some aspects of characters are difficult and challenging to get there. For example, during Amadeus Salieri has this whole big monologue in the middle of the play where he's denouncing God. He has just denounced God for showing favor on Mozart, and, what's wrong with me, and, I denounce you, I have to- and that was a very difficult monologue for me to do. I don't consider myself religious. I am spiritual, so that was--for Scott the 67:00person--that was a challenge to do that monologue, but then I had to channel my inner Salieri and say okay where is he at this moment in time? How would he react to this situation? And that's where it comes from. It's kind of like when they were abusing me at [Virginia] Tech. Where were they at that time? How would they react based on their knowledge, their skills, what have you. This is how they would respond, and that's how I approach characters as well. Where are they in they in the play? Where they emotionally in the play? How would someone like that respond?

F: So an experience like that, does it help evolve your relationship with your spirituality?

B: I guess, yeah.

F: Were you raised religious, and then you sort of adapted it to your experience?

B: Church every Sunday. Church every Sunday, and we were Protestant. We went every Sunday, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. I look back at- Activist. I was real active in- what did we call it? It was the high school- the youth group. I was active in that, and we had a retreat and they put me in charge one time of the topic. It was a weekend retreat- what are the topics we're going to discuss at the retreat, so I chose prostitution, homosexuality, drug abuse, living together, and I searched the scriptures in the Bible for passages that defended both sides of each case, so I guess maybe I've always been an activist and just didn't know it. You know to get people to think outside the box. Yeah, you can quote that scripture and it says this side of the story but then there's a passage over here that says just the opposite so which one do you fol- and we 69:00were all teenagers and were in high school, and were trying to formulate who we are, and what we believe in and what our values are, so that's the teaching in me too, the teacher in me. Let's look at this.

F: So was there a religious component to the difficulties your parents had at first.

B: Yes, yes.

F: But you didn't struggle with that?

B: Unh-uh. No I didn't think like God was going to send me down to hell for eternity, and I didn't do that. No, I never had the self loathing the self hating. I mean I can understand how with all these crackpots out there nowadays. I don't like to use judgmental adjectives, but, yeah, they're just messin' with 70:00people's heads. My God's different. Mine's a loving, forgiving, accepting God.

L: How has it been coming back to campus after these years?

B: Thirty-seven years. It was much more emotional than I thought it was gonna be. I teared up many times. Kids passing me going, what is this? Great memories, just great memories. I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't trade my time here at [Virginia] Tech. I said it earlier there were some difficult times. Yes, we 71:00struggled, but we did good. We did some good things here. I did make a point this morning before coming here, and I went to the LGBTQ+ center in Squires, and we didn't have that. We didn't have that safe place on campus. We had the Gay Student Alliance which was our safe place, and I'm thankful we had that. I think we would have found something, someplace to go, some group to form. And I think it's important we all have a safe place. Just to escape reality sometimes. Reality's tough. We need to chill every now and then. We take life too serious. I did recognize some of the buildings and some memories. The chapel was moving. 72:00It's nice to see when I walked in that it hadn't changed, at least not from my memory. And the kids are still doing what they've always done, kinda hang out above the chapel. Hang out there in the Drillfield doin' whatever. Playing frisbee and jogging, and we did that.

F: Except now they're also playing Quidditch.

B: Yeah, I don't know. And they all have headphones walkin' across- one thing I noticed- not a lotta eye contact, not a lotta eye contact with the students today. They're all busy listenin' to somethin' or talkin' to somebody, so maybe they didn't notice I'm standing there sobbing like an idiot, sobbing like a baby. But they were good tears. They weren't sad tears, angry tears. I'm a Hokie. I'll never tarnish this school and say anything bad about it. It was a 73:00great experience for me. Things have changed here, much bigger. But I'm glad to see The Cellar's still around! Oh my god! That was here when I was here. Go there and have my bottle of Riunite wine.

F: Is that what it was?

B: Well back then at eighteen you could have beer and wine. You couldn't have hard liquor, so I wasn't a beer drinker, so wine and Riunite was the wine of the times. I don't even think I could stomach it now, but it was nice to go there last night and reminisce.

F: That's where your dinner was?

B: Yeah. Yeah, we met there. I sent Nancy a text, and she was like, let's meet at The Cellar. I was like, is that place still there?

F: Was it downstairs only when you were here?

B: It was. It was called The Greek Cellar. Then there was Greeks Two which was 74:00just up the street a little ways. The theater's still here. I went almost every weekend and saw Rocky Horror Picture Show at midnight.

F: At the Lyric Theater?

B: Yeah. Right there. Is the Pancake-

F: Did you perform the Rocky Horror ever?

B: No, no. I never participated. I never took the bread or the umbrella or anything like that and I don't know why. Pancake King still around?

F: No, where was that?

B: It was right off campus, but that's where we'd do like all night study sessions during exam week. Go and have a pot of coffee and pancakes and study all night long. There was Daddy's Money which was- it's the building-

F: in that raised parking lot behind where Bollo's is, right?

B: Yeah, yeah.

F: Was Carol Lee Donuts downtown?

B: I don't remember. There was the McDonald's just up on that side of campus in 75:00the Wendy's was further down, but the McDonalds I could walk to from Major Williams. It was just a short hop, skip, and a jump. I don't even know if that's still there.

F: Yeah, that's still there.

B: Oh, okay. I remember having my chemistry class in this building, I had English in that building.

F: I guess upper quad was all dorms then, right, so you were in Major Williams and all the rest of-

B: Yeah all of those were dorms. Yeah, we kinda had dorms at this end of campus and then diagonally at this end with Ambler Johnston, Pritchard- that was the party dorm room. That had the pit, right?

F: Yeah.

B: Yeah, I remember bein' thrown out into the pit.

F: Yeah so you were up in the upper quad then you saw how that's changed. They've got the new cadet dorms and-

B: Yeah, I saw that and they still have the Mechanical Building. I took a 76:00picture of that.

F: Oh yeah.

B: Cause that's-

F: It's going away soon I think.

B: Oh no.

F: So where was the Addison Caldwell statue when you were there. The one they have now on the stairs?

B: I don't remember it.

F: It was in front of Performing Arts for a while.

B: I don't remember it.

F: I was wondering what the history of that moving around was.

B: I couldn't remember the third cafeteria name. There was Dietrich, Owens-

F: Shanks.

B: Shanks?

F: Yeah.

B: Okay.

F: That was the one in the upper quad.

B: Right, I couldn't remember it. I couldn't remember it yesterday.

F: That's where the Moss Arts now is. I think it was Shanks, yeah.

B: Dietrich always had the better food.

F: Oh, you'd be shocked at the dining halls now.

B: Oh, really.

F: Yeah.

B: What they're serving?

F: Yeah, it's very different.

B: There's a high carb diet, I remember that back then.

F: How we feelin'?

B: I feel fine, I feel good. Anything else you need to ask or wanna ask. I'll answer anything to the best of my abilities.

F: I think we got the story pretty well, yeah.

B: Okay.

B: It's been fun reconnecting with the people back then.

F: Yeah.

B: Hate to say it, some times our memories aren't so good.

F: Sure.

B: That was thirty-seven years ago when I left [Virginia] Tech. That's a long time. Thank you, gentlemen. I wanna thank you. I wanna thank the school. I wanna thank whoever's been involved in this.

F: Well thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with folks.

B: I think the human condition, we just all wanna leave something behind and nice to know that we did something like that for a lotta people their children are their legacy. For some of us it's somethin' else, and when we were doin' it 78:00at the time who thought it woulda been historic or controversial or trailblazing. So we got some validation there. That's a good feeling that we made a difference.

F: You're coming back in April, I s'pose?

B: Oh, yeah. And hopefully my husband can come with me. It all depends on his work schedule but he's planning to come.

[End of interview]