Oral History with Dr. Charlie Yates, September 13, 2000 (Ms2003-011)

Tamara Kennelly: This is September 13, 2000. We're in the Media Building. My name is Tamara Kennelly and I'm interviewing Dr. Charlie Yates. You're listed in the Bugle as being from Norfolk. Were you born in Norfolk?

Charlie Yates: No. I was born in North Carolina.

Tamara: Did you grow up in North Carolina?

Yates: My parents moved from North Carolina to Norfolk when I was about two years old. So essentially I grew up in Norfolk even though I spent most my summers in North Carolina until I was about thirteen or fourteen.

Tamara: Where in North Carolina?

Yates: A little tiny place called Harrellsville in North Carolina, south of Suffolk, Virginia, about forty miles or so just below the Virginia/North Carolina line.

Tamara: And that's where you were born? Did you have family there that you would go there in the summers?

Yates: Yes, I had both my paternal and maternal grandparents.

Tamara: Could you say what their names are?

Yates: My maternal grandparent's names were Benny Sharp. I guess his actual name was Starky Benjamin, but everyone called him Benny, and my grandmother's name was Emma Harrell. My paternal grandparents were Thomas Yates and Lillie Yates.

Tamara: So were they both from this small community?

Yates: Yes

Tamara: Were they involved in agriculture?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: In what way?

Yates: Tobacco, peanuts, corn, primarily; a little cotton.

Tamara: When you went for the summers, were you helping?

Yates: Oh yes! I suppose by the time I was ten or eleven years old, I spent the entire day out in the tobacco field with my adult uncles doing what was referred to as priming tobacco in that area. It has various names in different parts of the South, but in that area we called it priming tobacco. Sometimes it's called cropping tobacco.

Kennelly: What does that mean?

Yates: Well, you go out weekly, and you pull the leaves that are ripe. We cure those, and you therefore harvest the tobacco over a period of probably about six 3:00weeks. It's not done that way anymore. It's done entirely different now.

Tamara: Did you also help with cutting, stripping, and housing--those type of things-- while you were growing up?

Yates: Yes, yes.

Tamara: Just whatever needed to be done?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Between the two sets of grandparents were there separate operations?

Yates: Separate operations. Though I tended to live mostly with my maternal grandparents, during each week I would spend a day at least with my paternal grandparents helping them in their operation. Typically, that's how I earned enough money over the summer to purchase my school clothes for the coming year.

Tamara: They would pay you to make it worth your while?

Yates: Yes. Yes.

Tamara: So, you were actually providing your own clothes from labor when you were around ten. I believe you had two sisters and a brother.

Yates: Two sisters and a brother.

Tamara: Did they go down too?

Yates: Yes, as they became of age, they would also go down. I was the oldest, so I was the first to get involved in that activity.

Tamara: Was that community an integrated community?

Yates: No, definitely not. Well, first of all it was very rural, so it is a little difficult to talk of integration unless you're talking of school systems. The school systems were segregated. I'd say life in general was segregated at that time. A lot of the--particularly African American farmers were 5:00sharecroppers. My grandparents happened to own their own property, but most of the African American farmers were sharecroppers.

Tamara: Both sets of parents owned their own property?

Yates: Yes, yes.

Tamara: I guess I was thinking in terms of contact. When you were in North Carolina, was there much contact with white people?

Yates: Not a lot. Sometimes we would actually be working together. In addition to my grandparents, [we would work with] other farmers in the area, and sometimes there would be whites working along with us. But other than that, there was essentially no contact.

Tamara: Would you work for white farmers or African American farmers when you worked for other farmers?

Yates: In my own case, I worked for African American farmers, and some of those African American farmers also had whites working for them.

Tamara: Was that pretty typical--a young person your age? Would there be other kids your age working?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was church a big, important thing in this community?

Yates: Church was very much segregated, but yes, church was important. There were at least two churches very close by, in the township of Harrellsville. Both Baptist churches at that time tended to hold worship services once a month. So 7:00at least twice a month there would be church services in the immediate areas. Then at other times times of the month, there would be church services at other African American churches but in other communities.

Tamara: Was that something your family would attend?

Yates: Oh yes!

Tamara: Was it an important part of your life?

Yates: Yes, a very important part of my life. I frequently say it was, in fact, that experience I had working with my grandparents, particularly my maternal grandfather who was an extremely proud man. He thought that he was the best farmer around in terms of being efficient about going about his daily activities. I think some of that rubbed off on me. The fact that he thought he 8:00was as good a farmer as anyone around him was, I think-- very early on, what made me want to be the very best at whatever I did. Particularly when I started elementary school. I'm sure that attitude had a lot to do with the success that I enjoyed in elementary school.

Tamara: Did you go to elementary school in Norfolk?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was that a segregated school? Was it a big school?

Yates: The elementary school...that was a long time ago. A reasonable size 9:00elementary school.

Tamara: A regular urban school?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: You went to Booker T. Washington High School?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was that also segregated?

Yates: That was also segregated. It served essentially all the African American students in the city of Norfolk. There were some parochial high schools, but most African American students ended up going to Booker T. Washington.

Tamara: Was it a very big school?

Yates: It was a very big school. Yes, yes. I guess in my class were probably five hundred graduates.

Tamara: Could you tell me about what your parents did?

Yates: My father was a longshoreman. Once he left the farm in North Carolina and 10:00moved to Norfolk, he became a longshoreman. My mother did domestic work, and later in her life she was custodian in one of the white high schools in Norfolk for several years.

Tamara: Was she able to work when she had small children?

Yates: I don't recall her working until we were all in school.

Tamara: So she could schedule it. Was education valued in your family?

Yates: Neither parent graduated from high school. So one goal of my mother was that I and my siblings--we'd all graduate from high school. My father was not that supportive, generally as a father. He was not a good family man, I would say. So it was not a big deal to him, I believe. My mother was very much concerned that we finish high school.

Tamara: Do you think she regretted not being able to finish [high school] herself?

Yates: Not particularly, because that was sort of the accepted norm in the area where she grew up. To graduate from high school then was somewhat out of the ordinary for most of her peers.

Tamara: But she wanted that for her children -- that was important?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: When you were growing up, did you have much contact with other races besides African Americans in Norfolk?

Yates: Not until I was probably fourteen. It seems like for as long as I remember I was working somewhere. At the age of thirteen or fourteen, I was working in a restaurant, which were essentially a white establishment, and a drug store, again in a white neghborhood. So those were my early contacts with non-African Americans. When I was fifteen, I took a job with a new car 13:00dealership in Norfolk, and I held that job continuously, working part time during the school year and full time during the summer until I graduated from high school. So that put me in a lot of contact with whites.

Tamara: What did you do at the new car dealership?

Yates: Oh, general labor--everything...wash, polish automobiles, pick up and deliver automobiles that were having service work done. I would occasionally transport a vehicle from Norfolk,Virginia to Richmond, Virginia. A new vehicle that was being exchanged in order to provide a customer with a particular vehicle that they wanted.

Tamara: So they had confidence in you as a teenage driver?

Yates: Yes, very much so. The odometer was never connected during this operation. So I was driving by the seat of my pants, if you like. Really not knowing how fast I was going. I never got ticketed, and that was about a hundred-mile trip--a significant drive.

Tamara: What about those other jobs you had earlier? Was that summertime or was it during the school year?

Yates: Some were during the school year.

Tamara: Even when you were pretty young, you would go and work after school?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was the money you earned contributed to the family?

Yates: Well, I was permitted to, more or less, use that for my own needs. I 15:00guess there was some contribution made to the family. But that was one way I was able to take care of my day-to-day needs during the school year.

Tamara: So you'd buy your clothes?

Yates: Clothes, my lunch, and things like that. Unfortunately, I started smoking very early in life, at age fifteen. I'd buy my cigarettes. My mother told me that if you can buy them, you can smoke. Which was a mistake! [laughter]

Tamara: Was the decision to not go anymore to North Carolina in the summer your own decision?

Yates: That was my own decision. I got to the point where I decided it would be 16:00more profitable to stay in my own area to find work. I can recall that the summer I was fourteen, I worked at a hotel, the Cavalier Hotel in Virginia Beach. Well known then, but I don't know if you've ever heard of it. I spent the summer there working on the hotel grounds. That was at a much higher salary than I was able to make in North Carolina.

Tamara: So did you actually stay there for the whole summer on your own?

Yates: At the hotel? No, Virginia Beach and Norfolk are very close together. So 17:00I would catch the bus every morning from Norfolk to Virginia Beach.

Tamara: What kind of neighborhood was your family living in?

Yates: Although we didn't particularly refer to it at that time as being so, I'd say by today's standards, it would be considered not quite the ghetto but sort 18:00of close to that. The houses were typically four family units to a building. These were all being rented--were not owned. I guess until I was almost through high school, my particular house had outdoor toilet facilities. So that would give you an idea of what it was like.

Tamara: But they were not high rises?

Yates: No, they were not high rises. As I said, a building would have four units in it--so four families in one building, and they were sort of stacked one after another. Not row houses because row houses were typically directly attached. 19:00These were separated by three feet or so.

Tamara: Did you feel safe in your neighborhood?

Yates: Yes, growing up I felt that my neighborhood was rather normal. But once I had experienced other types of neighborhoods, then I was in a better position to evaluate the neighborhood I grew up in.

Tamara: When you were growing up, did you feel the adults were looking out for kids besides their own kids, more than your parents checking up on you?

Yates: Because we were all living very close together. My parents had no 20:00difficulty with neighborhood mothers disciplining any of us. That was sort of accepted then.

Tamara: Was there any problem with gangs?

Yates: Very little--the kind of thing mischievous boys always get into but nothing serious--nothing nearly like the gangs of today.

Tamara: Was church important to your family in Norfolk?

Yates: Yes, I'd say because of our background in North Carolina, that tended to carry over into the Norfolk setting.

Tamara: Was either of your parents or anyone in your family politically active?

Yates: No.

Tamara: NAACP?

Yates: No.

Tamara: Any kind of sitting-in?

Yates: No, I don't think my father ever registered to vote, or my mother. They were just not politically inclined at all.

Tamara: As a young person growing up, did you have any negative experience as 21:00far as race -- a painful or hurtful thing?

Yates: No, not really. It depends on what you mean by growing up. I can recall that after I had enrolled here at Virginia Tech, the summer after my freshman year, I sought a job at the Ford Motor Company assembly plant that was located in Norfolk because a lot of the students here said that was a good place to work. So I decided I'm going to go and see if I can get a job there. I can recall that I went and made an application and was told that they had hired their quota of janitors for the year. I was not looking for a job as a janitor 22:00but a job on the assembly line.

Tamara: The fact that you were an engineering student...

Yates: It didn't mean anything to anyone.

Tamara: Was it a shock to be treated that way?

Yates: No, not really. It was consistent with conditions at that time.

Tamara: What did you end up doing then?

Yates: Well that summer, I went back to work with the same new car dealership. The following summer I went to New Jersey and got a job with the Ford Motor Company assembly plant there. I worked there that summer, lived in Bronx, New 23:00York and commuted between New York and New Jersey.

Tamara: You worked in the assembly plant there?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Since you were the oldest sibling, did you have special responsibilities for your younger siblings?

Yates: No, not especially...just sort of informal. If my mother had to go out for any reason, typically I was in charge. My older sister is only a year younger than I am. She never accepted that. But supposedly I was in charge.

Tamara: So all through school, you were quite successful in your elementary and 24:00high school?

Yates: Yes, and that's where I really credit the influence of my grandfather because while my mother wanted us to graduate from high school, there were never any demands put on us beyond going to school, behaving, and passing. I suppose because of my grandfather's influence, I wanted to be the best. So from very early on, even in elementary school, I got good grades, and it carried over into high school.

Tamara: Was that important to your siblings too?

Yates: No, I don't believe so. In fact, they always complained that it was somewhat of a problem for them, having to follow me. The teachers expected things of them based on their knowledge of me. They didn't think it was particularly fair.

Tamara: Did they go onto college?

Yates: One sister went on to college, and another sister went into the service after school. My brother also went into the service. After the service he did some work at the college level, but he didn't pursue a degree.

Tamara: Your physics teacher was instrumental to your coming to Tech. What was his name?

Yates: John Perry.

Tamara: He had heard of Irving Peddrew. Was he a mentor to you?

Yates: A mentor, a teacher, a supporter--Mr. Perry was always somewhat of an activist, very much involved in education. In fact, he eventually became a city councilman for the City of Virginia Beach, which I point out because it indicates how active he was in the community beyond the high school setting. He 27:00was very knowledgeable in terms of sources...where you could obtain scholarships for students. In fact, it was because of that knowledge that I was able to attend college anywhere .... Based on the fact that he was able to point out some sources of income.

Tamara: Why did you decide to come to Virginia Tech?

Yates: Well again, Mr. Perry--because of his somewhat activist nature and once he learned that VT had admitted a black student in 1953, I guess he wanted to 28:00show the world that students from my high school, Booker T. Washington, were trained well enough that we could also be successful at Virginia Tech. So he recommended Virginia Tech. I was sort of looking to go to at least a couple of other institutions. I recall that I applied to MIT and got accepted. But they did not offer me any scholarships. So even with the funds Mr. Perry was able to generate, they wouldn't have been sufficient for me to go to MIT which is very expensive, then and now.

Tamara: So he generated funds beyond the actual school scholarship? He was able 29:00to get other funds to help with expenses?

Yates: With the case of Virginia Tech, there were no scholarships offered to us. So all the funds we got had to come from other sources.

Tamara: What sources?

Yates: There was one that was a local philanthropic organization, and it was called the Lincoln Foundation. That was in Norfolk, Virginia. I don't know a lot about that organization, but I recall its name. Then there was a national organization called the United Negro Scholarship Fund, or something like that, 30:00whose objective was to provide funds to African American students who enrolled in primarily white institutions. So we got money from that organization. And I recall that those two, together with my summer work and my work over the Christmas holidays, was what got me through. I was in ROTC in my junior and most of my senior year here, and there was a stipend we got as a result of that. That was on the contract for actively going into the Air Force and taking training, which I didn't do.

Tamara: It wasn't Rockefeller money then?

Yates: No, it wasn't Rockefeller money.

Tamara: When you were coming here, did you think you were coming as a pioneer? I mean were you conscious of what it would mean to come to a school that was all white except for one other black student here and the two coming with you.

Yates: I think that my work experience during high school had provided me with enough contact with white people that it was not much of a concern by the time I got around to coming here. In fact, I can recall that one gentlemen that use to bring his automobile to the dealership where I worked--his son, who was about to enroll here the same time that I was going to enroll, we had occasion to talk about that. So I didn't really feel I was coming into a completely foreign environment. That, plus the fact that this was an opportunity to get a college 32:00degree which was something I had not thought about all my life, even though I had been doing very well through school. It was more just to do well at whatever I was doing, more so than looking ahead to the possibility of going to college. When the opportunity came along, I supposed I just grabbed it. I wasn't particularly concerned about other social aspects associated with my being enrolled in a school like Virginia Tech at that particular time.

Tamara: Was that gentlemen that brought his car in--I assume he was white?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Did he make any comment just to the fact that it was interesting that you both were going to the same school?

Yates: Well, I didn't talk to him. I talked with his son who was enrolled.

Tamara: So you had contact with a fellow classmate?

Yates: That's an interesting question you raise because I don't think there was any particular concern shown at that time as far as I recall. It would have not been unexpected as far as you really think you're going to Virginia Polytechnic Institute because they don't have black students there.

Tamara: But you don't recall that as being an issue?

Yates: No, I don't.

Tamara: At that point what was your career goal? Had you decided what to do?

Yates: Well, there was no question what we were studying, engineering because that was the only condition that we could enroll in VPI, was to study engineering. I didn't know a lot about engineering, so I decided that I had been working in this automobile dealership all these years that mechanical engineering had to be the right thing for me. So I chose mechanical engineering. I didn't really have any firm occupational goals at that time, but I guess as I 35:00went along with my studies, I realized that a lot of my fellow students were looking to go to graduate school, and I decided I would give that a try.

Tamara: And it turned out that for you, engineering was a good choice? You weren't doing engineering when you wished you were doing something else?

Yates: Well, no, it turned out to be a good choice.

Tamara: I understand that before you came to school, Dr. Walter Newman, who was the president of the university, and Dr. Paul Farrier, who I think was director of admissions, came to Booker T. Washington High School, along with the principal, your family, the families of Floyd Wilson and Lindsay Cherry, the other two incoming students and yourself. Why did they do this?

Yates: Well, I think the concern of the administration at that point in time was to bring as little publicity to the fact that black students were coming here as 37:00possible. Because in that way it was probably easier for Tech to go to Richmond to get some funds, and I think they didn't want that to be an issue. So I think their purpose in coming to Norfolk was first of all, to let it be known that they did not wish us to live on campus. I think that was one of the main purposes of that trip: to lay down the ground rules--we wish you not to live on 38:00campus. When I think back, that's the only thing that really stands out, that we not live on campus. I can't think of any other particular ground rules laid down at that time.

Tamara: Was there anything said about social contact with coeds?

Yates: No. I guess there were probably one hundred and fifty female students. No, that was not a real concern, at least in things that came up during that visit.

Tamara: I just want to make sure I understand. To get more money from Richmond, 39:00they wanted it not to be known that there were black students at Virginia Tech?

Yates: Well, they wanted it to be kept as quiet as possible.

Tamara: Even from Richmond?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was it keeping a low profile?

Yates: Well, it was keeping a low profile, in general. Because I think anything that would have put a spotlight on this situation, from their viewpoint, could have been disadvantageous to the school.

Tamara: But one wonders on the other hand, if there was any kind of government pressure, federal government pressure to be integrating the schools.

Yates: Well that's a very interesting point because there was no litigation associated with my enrolling here or Irving Peddrew the year before. On the 40:00other hand, it was probably--foreseeing that eventually that this would happen anyway and therefore to avoid the publicity associated with blacks enrolling here--that they sort of wanted us to enroll quietly. To keep that reality as quiet as possible.

Tamara: Do you recall having any special feelings about that meeting? It seems a little intimidating that the president of the school comes to visit you in your high school.

Yates: Well, no, because we did have my parents there, teachers there, my high 41:00school principal was there. We felt protected you might say.

Tamara: Did you feel okay having these ground rules given to you?

Yates: Yes, in my own case, I was more concerned with getting a degree. These things were not important to me.

Kennelly: You had your goal in mind, and you could put up with these things?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: How did you actually get to Virginia Tech when you first came here back in 1954?

Yates: I believe we took the train that came into Christiansburg.

Tamara: The old Huckleberry?

Yates: This was a regular train that ran from Norfolk through Christiansburg. I don't know it's final destination.

Tamara: Oh, okay.

Yates: So, that's how we got to Christiansburg. An African American gentleman, who owned a taxi company in Christiansburg, S. B. Morgan, met us there. I guess within the past five to six years or so he's probably passed, but he brought us over to Clay Street here in Blacksburg where we took a room in the house where we lived.

Tamara: Did he acknowledge that this was something different?

Yates: Oh, yes, he was really expecting us. I guess I would have to say that 43:00most of the African Americans in the community were aware of what was going on then. The change that was taking place. They were very much aware of it.

Tamara: Were there many African Americans working at Virginia Tech then?

Yates: I don't think there were very many. There were a few, but mostly in service staff type positions. I know a gentleman who worked at the old cleaners, and those types of jobs.

Tamara: Did you feel welcomed by the African American community?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Was there a special effort to welcome you?

Yates: Yes, there was a special effort made. Because we essentially lived in that community, we became part of that community. We were students that came over to campus during the day, and once our studies were over, we were back as part of the community.

Tamara: You were staying with the Hoge family. How did that work out? There were three of you living there?

Yates: There were four students. During my four years, there were four students. Maybe in my senior year, there were three students.

Tamara: I guess I mean did you miss living in the dorm? Was there a more homey feeling?

Yates: Well, there were positives, and there were negatives. The positives were that it did allow us direct access to the African American community. If we were living on campus, we would not have had this because living as cadets, there were certain restrictions about when you can go and when you have to come back. Also, the fact we were living off campus instead of on, we did not have all the 46:00responsibilities that a cadet would normally have. But there were also some negative aspects--getting together to study with my regular classmates. We were able to do that a lot, but not always at a convenient time because we were not living on campus.

Tamara: So did you get together and study with classmates?

Yates: Oh yes. A lot.

Tamara: So there was that comradeship...

Yates: I can think of almost no negative aspects of my academic life during that 47:00time in terms of interacting with my fellow students. Now I understand there were some professors who were not happy about having African American students in their classes. But I can think of no circumstances where I can think of being treated unfairly by those professors. So in terms of academics...

Yates: I imagine my life would have been much different if I would have lived on campus.

Tamara: As far as the Corps, what kind of things wouldn't you have to do?

Yates: March in formation to breakfast in the morning. Same thing for dinner. 48:00Lights out at a certain time. If I needed to stay up all night and study, I could do it, and no one would be concerned.

Tamara: What about hazing? Did you go through hazing in the Corps?

Yates: No, not really. There was not a lot of hazing then, generally. I probably was exposed to less because I didn't live on campus. We, the African American students would have to participate in such activities like parades. We had to 49:00participate in any daytime Corps activities. And even though you would probably be dressed down by upperclassmen in those kinds of situations, there was never anything very serious about that.

Tamara: It wasn't like hazing in the sense of doing something awful to somebody?

Yates: No.

Tamara: When you were an upperclassman, did you do hazing to the lower classmen?

Yates: No, again because I was really never on campus enough to be in that kind 50:00of situation. As a freshman, it was required that you always walk on the right hand side of the walkway wherever you were, and you spoke very loudly to all upperclassmen: "Good morning, sir. Good afternoon, sir." That was a must. Then in my freshman year I didn't have any difficulties with that. I did notice that when I became a sophomore, some of the freshmen did have a little difficulty with addressing me as, "Good morning, sir, Good afternoon, sir." But it never really caused a problem.

Tamara: Did you call them on it?

Yates: Oh yes. I did a couple times. Sometimes I've thought back on this and said you have to be out of your mind. Here you are one of about 4,500 white students up here, you shouldn't be doing that. Not very smart. But it was never really a problem.

Tamara: Were there any repercussions from your doing that?

Yates: No.

Tamara: But you felt that was the whole way of doing that and that was the way of following procedures. Definitely from the Corps standpoint they should be called on it?

Yates: Yes, right. There were a couple of occasions on which I could have--the terminology then was you could write up somebody...give to them demerits for not following some rules. But I never felt it was appropriate to follow through on that because it was only a very few occasions. Then again it was surprising how well we were able to interact with the other students.

Tamara: Did you know Irving Peddrew very well?

Yates: Well, as roommates, if you like, the three or two years.

Tamara: Had he felt things were terribly difficult before you came? I mean the first year he was all alone.

Yates: Yes, that was obviously a difficulty being all alone. My impression was that when he eventually left here that he had a somewhat more negative attitude than I did, and apparently that grew out of his being the first black student which I don't think was quite the same as my experiences coming along a year 53:00later. I never really could appreciate just why he felt as negative as he did.

Tamara: I understand that you left your rifle in a classmate's room so you didn't have to carry it back and forth from drills.

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Did you visit in the rooms with the cadets?

Yates: Whenever we had an activity such as a parade, drill practice, or anything like that, I typically would go too. In this particular case, it was the room of a couple of students who would always let me come there and dress and again let 54:00me leave my rifle there in the room. I can really say that we really became friends. I have had contact with both of them in the last couple of years. So it has held together over the years.

Tamara: Did you have an interest in a military career?

Yates: Well, I did. I really wanted to go into the Air Force to take my training, but I learned my senior year the Air Force gave us lessons out at the airport theatre. The idea was to give us an opportunity to see what we found out about flying. What I found is that I don't like height. It's a little hard to fly an aircraft if you don't like height. I'm very uncomfortable at the top of 55:00the Empire State Building. [laughter] I just don't like height. I decided on the basis of that experience and the lessons that I took that I didn't want to do that. I decided that especially because at that point I had been accepted to grad school at Cal Tech. Also because I had gone to summer camp. At that camp, after your junior year, you would spend four or five weeks at summer camp. Which I did.

Tamara: Like summer ROTC camp?

Yates: Yes. I was at McDill Air Force Base at Tampa, Florida. That's where I 56:00spent my summer. I had an opportunity to talk to a lot of the Air Force officers, and what I learned was that most of them were not involved with professional work associated with their college training. Since the Air Force put you where they needed you independently of what your college background might have been, I decided that if I was going to be a reasonably good engineer, the Air Force was not where I wanted to be. Especially, if I wasn't going to fly. So I requested and it was approved, that I was able to resign my commission 57:00about three months before I graduated.

Tamara: Did you get a scholarship to Cal Tech?

Yates: Yes, I worked the summer in between graduating from VPI and [going to] Cal Tech. I worked for an aircraft engine company in New York. Based on my savings from that job and the scholarship from Cal Tech, I was able to complete the master's program there.

Tamara: Did anyone at Virginia Tech help you to get the scholarship for graduate school?

Yates: It is something I pursued more or less on my own. But I'm sure the department head and others had to support me in terms of recommendations. It's always required. I'm sure that they did that. I don't remember exactly who at this point, but I'm sure they did. That's the kind of thing they would have done.

Tamara: Was there something like a mentor, someone who took you under their wing?

Yates: No. I guess I sort of picked up on that from my fellow students. The fact that graduate school could be very important. So I pursued it on my own more or less.

Tamara: It sounds that the students you were hanging around with were very academically focused.

Yates: I think the interview that you refer to, I make mention of the fact of one of the students with whom I had a very close relationship, another graduate, Dean Mook who is now a professor in Engineering Science and Mechanics here. In fact, he was one of the first students who went into that program.

Tamara: So another student who really pursued and was successful in their academic career?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: You mentioned earlier--the man back at Booker T. Washington wanted to show that his students could compete. Did you feel adequately prepared when you 60:00came to Virginia Tech?

Yates: Yes. I did. I've often noted that, because at that point in history...it was when the State of Virginia mandated that we have equal but separate school facilities...as a result of that, a lot of teachers in my high school, because they did not have the opportunity to go elsewhere, were extremely well prepared. I'm sure that in today's environment they would be teaching at college level. But the opportunities did not exist then. As a result of that, together with the 61:00fact that the community structure was quite different then where not only could your neighbor adults discipline children but also the teachers could, the teachers had probably more of a greater interest at that point in the success of the students. Discipline was not nearly as much of a problem. As a result of that, I think that we were very well prepared. I think that this was one of the statements Mr. Perry wanted to make, that the students coming out of Booker T. 62:00were very well prepared, even though we did not have the level of support that the white schools had in the area in terms of equipment and that kind of thing.

Tamara: When you came to Virginia Tech, you felt like you could compete with the other students with no problem?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: I understand that you were in the YMCA cabinet and that you were active in the YMCA. I notice your photo isn't in the yearbook photo of the YMCA. I wondered if that was a deliberate omission. You also aren't in the Squadron C 63:00picture. You were in the Squadron C?

Yates: I'm not sure why I wasn't in the Squadron picture. I don't recall if I was not aware and just missed or why that came about. And the YMCA picture, I guess I'd have to make the same comment because there, in particular, I don't think there would have been any effort made by anyone to keep my picture from appearing. I don't think so.

Tamara: I just wondered if this whole thing of low profile...

Yates: That's one of those things that if you don't live on campus, you might miss out on--that sort of thing.

Tamara: Right, right. What kind of activities did you become involved in with 64:00the YMCA?

Yates: Bible study groups, I recall. That's the one thing that sticks out in my mind besides the usual meetings. Items or the usual agenda, I don't recall.

Tamara: Did race prevent you from fully participating in any of the activities?

Yates: It was a concern with some of the activities. Whenever white female students were involved because they were pretty much active as part of the YMCA. Does that make sense?

Tamara: You're right.

Yates: It meant that there was that contact. So, I can recall that there were some activities where concern was expressed particularly when there were off-campus activities. Concern was expressed about the contact between myself 66:00and any of the white female students.

Tamara: Who was expressing the concern?

Yates: Well, one person who was very much always concerned was a gentleman, Paul Derring. I can recall at least one activity we were involved with, something off campus, and he had made it known that he didn't particularly care that I would be involved in that. But the person who was involved in the day-to-day operation of the YMCA he was very supportive of my being involved. I can't think of his name...Stan...I can't think of his last name now.

Tamara: So you were able to participate in whatever this activity was?

Yates: Yes. Yes.

Tamara: Was that painful or did it make you angry?

Yates: No, because there were enough people that were supportive of me that the fact that one was not wasn't bothersome.

Tamara: Were you able to make friends with any of the young ladies involved?

Yates: Yes, I recall there were a couple who were somewhat friends. But that was essentially the only contact we had in the YMCA setting. I can recall almost no 68:00female white students in engineering then. So the classroom contact was minimal.

Tamara: You were the corresponding secretary for Tau Beta Pi, the honor society for students in engineering. You were also recording secretary for Pi Tau Sigma, the honor society for mechanical engineering. These societies are formed to mark those that have confirmed honor upon their alma mater by distinguished scholarship and exemplary character as undergraduates in engineering. So did you feel that holding offices in these honorary societies and just being in them, was that an important recognition by your peers?

Yates: Recognition? Yes, and I think acceptance because I think this was 69:00entirely voluntary on their part. No obligation, and I think it was indicative of the kind of relationship that I had with my fellow students. Very normal. Very normal.

Tamara: That you were an outstanding student and you would be invited to participate in this activity. I'm kind of assuming that you must have kept a good GPA--done well academically here.

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: I wondered about the climate in the Corps, in the general sense, maybe not directed to you as far as race goes. For example, I know the Highty Tighties playing "Dixie" has been an issue. Was that something that was going on at that time?

Yates: Oh, yes. One requirement of the Corps was that we had to attend football games, particularly home games, as members of the Corps. I had to participate in 70:00that. I can remember very well "Dixie" was sung occasionally at those games. But, quite frankly, I didn't know what "Dixie" was then.

Tamara: Did someone run out with a Confederate flag?

Yates: They may have. That wasn't an issue for me because I didn't even know the significance of that.

Tamara: So it wasn't like you were feeling harassed?

Yates: No.

Tamara: Did you think that your strengths were recognized at Virginia Tech as a student?

Yates: Yes, as a student I think so.

Tamara: I saw a letter from Irving Peddrew in the Collegiate Times about his 71:00decision not to go to the ring dance. It seemed from reading that, it was a painful decision. I understand that your class officers met and decided to ask you to attend the ring dance. I was wondering how you felt about this. If it made you feel like an outsider that they would need to invite you? If it felt good? I wondered about your perception of that.

Yates: Well, I felt good about that. Not because I felt it was so personal toward me-- because it was progress that the students had made in one year. As I recall, Irving's classmates did not want him to come, but my classmates did. So 72:00I saw that as just really progress.

Tamara: What about the response of the administration. Dr. Newman, I believe suggested that you not attend.

Yates: Mr. Cherry and I were called to his office. I don't remember the exact 73:00conversation that took place. But the essence was that he did not wish that we attend the ring dance.

Tamara: Was it disappointing as an issue? What was your response if you can carry yourself back to how you felt at this time?

Yates: Well, I very distinctly remember how I felt at the time. I felt very good about the action that the class officers had taken. On the other hand, I could not have afforded to attend the ring dance. I was not going to attend the ring dance. I knew that, and so what Dr. Newman did really didn't bother me that much. Had I been planning to go to the ring dance, I surely would have felt differently.

Tamara: I guess Mr. Cherry decided not to go.

Yates: He had not planned to go either.

Tamara: What was your social life like at Virginia Tech? What did you do for a social life?

Yates: As I've indicated, really living in the community provided pretty much a normal social life of any African American in the community at that time. On the day that I graduated I married a young lady who graduated from Christiansburg Institute which was the high school here.

Tamara: On the day you graduated? Her name was...?

Yates: Ernestine.

Tamara: The last name?

Yates: McDaniel.

Tamara: So that was someone you met while you were a student?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: She was at Christiansburg Institute. She graduated from Christiansburg Institute?

Yates: Yes. Yes.

Tamara: She was someone you met socially at parties.

Yates: Yes. Right.

Tamara: Were you dating? I guess you must have been. [laughter]

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Were there any community dances?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Would they have music?

Yates: Yes, dances, music, high school football games. We would occasionally go to Roanoke on social activities.

Tamara: To hear music in a club?

Yates: Yes. I can't remember exactly the club. There was a place there in Roanoke to which a lot of big name, nationally known entertainers used to come. And then occasionally I recall going to some events on campus. I can remember 76:00Louis Armstrong was here once.

Tamara: So you would go to that. Was that a dance?

Yates: No, a concert.

Tamara: You felt comfortable going to that?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: Did you belong to a church here?

Yates: Well, we lived next door to the Baptist Church on Clay Street, so that was where I went to church most of the time.

Tamara: What about life in the Blacksburg community? Did you feel comfortable if you wanted to get a cup of coffee anywhere? Did you feel any racism in the community?

Yates: One did not get a cup of coffee anywhere then.

Tamara: You didn't.

Yates: I don't think any of the facilities were integrated then. You could go to the movie at the Lyric, but you had to sit in the balcony. That was the only facility in town that we could make use of.

Tamara: You couldn't go to a restaurant?

Yates: No.

Tamara: It was understood, and it just wasn't something you could walk in and sit down?

Yates: Well, I think at that point in time it may even have been law. I'll always remember that I would occasionally get a ride between here and Norfolk with someone who was going that way and let me go along. There was a restaurant 78:00between here and Norfolk ...around Richmond. Very popular. Everyone always stopped there along that route. I can recall that at least on one occasion, some of the fellows with whom I was riding wanted to have me eat with them, which totally couldn't be. So they offered to eat on the other side of the restaurant with me--which they couldn't do--and the interesting thing about this is that the restaurant was owned by an African American.

Tamara: Really.

Yates: Plus, in fact it was law.

Tamara: But the students you were with--they would rather mix things. But you both ended up eating in separate areas. Well I heard that Essex Finney and you and maybe another student decided to test the policy of blacks. At that point I think all blacks sat upstairs in the balcony of the Lyric, and you decided to 79:00test this and go downstairs. Do you recall this?

Yates: No. [laughter]

Tamara: Also, Essex Finney recalled going to visit President Newman on a few occasions to express a desire to participate in social activities. Did you go on those visits.

Yates: No.

Tamara: So as far as the community of Blacksburg...were you going to say something?

Yates: Well you brought back something. I think Finney did attend his ring dance.

Tamara: It might have been Mr. Whitehurst. Maybe Finney did too. He did too?

Yates: I think so.

Tamara: And he would be the next year?

Yates: He would be the next year.

Tamara: I'll check on that. Maybe things changed a lot.

Yates: I could be wrong on that, but I thought in the spring of last year--I thought we talked about that. But don't quote me.

Tamara: Okay. So there wasn't overt racial discrimination as far as being in the town. Did anyone ever act in an offensive way to you or hurt your feelings?

Yates: No...because to get from where we were living to campus, we always had to go through town, and so there was no doubt about who we were. But that was never a problem.

Tamara: After you earned your masters at Cal Tech, you joined the Applied 81:00Physics Laboratory at Johns Hopkins University. You spent twenty years there doing research and development primarily for the Navy. Were you the first black professional on the staff there?

Yates: Well, the year that I was hired was the first year that they hired black 82:00professionals, apparently one other person and myself. I don't know who was first.

Tamara: Did you feel your race made a difference there professionally?

Yates: Professionally, no. Socially, again, yes...because even though we were somewhat out of the South, there were still some of the same social restrictions put on one, even there in Maryland. I recall going to lunch one day with a couple of my older colleagues. We were turned away from a couple of places much to their surprise. At Christmas time, our own little group would go out to a 83:00Christmas party and invite our spouses. That was always a problem...where you went to make sure everyone was accepted.

Tamara: How did you find the climate at Johns Hopkins compared to the climate at Virginia Tech as far as the issues of race and diversity? Was there much of a difference?

Yates: Well, not much of a difference, and I say that because as I've already 84:00indicated, I think my relationship with the student body was a good one. That's the same as my professional relationship was at Johns Hopkins. But socially the same kinds of social ills that existed at Tech also were those that I experienced at Johns Hopkins. It was at a time when these things were changing very rapidly, I think probably at Virginia Tech and also at Johns Hopkins. It was a time of history in which we were going through drastic change.

Tamara: Right...the whole country.

Late in your career you helped Hampton start a chemical engineering program, and 85:00then you left that because of differences with the administration on issues of accreditation. Was that a difficult decision to leave where you were helping to set up this program and then you couldn't get the support of the administration on accreditation?

Yates: Well, somewhat of a difficult decision. I left Virginia Tech and went to Hampton because I was thinking that there was--based on the experiences I gained up to the point--there was a contribution I could make to that program. So it was discouraging that I wasn't able to do that. But, I had the opportunity to 86:00talk with a lot of people who I figured to be very knowledgeable about the direction of the program there, what it should be and how it was going. Based on those conversations I had with, for instance with Paul Torgersen who was then the Dean of Engineering at Virginia Tech, I decided that it was probably best that I leave that program. One makes decisions throughout life where sometimes you can say definitely that it was the right one. Sometimes you can say well you don't really know, but you made the decision, so you can live with it.

Tamara: Speaking of contributions, what do you regard (in terms of yourself as a professor at Virginia Tech) as your most important contributions, things that stand out in your mind?

Yates: Well that's a very good question. That's one I'm still trying to define 87:00for myself. Let me explain why I say that the way I do. I always had what I consider--what was an excellent educational opportunity during a period of time when it was an honor to be exposed to my teachers, whether it was high school or college. Where it was expected that I work hard and produce according to whatever their demands on me happened to be. I find that things have changed a lot. On the other hand, I haven't been able to change as much as a lot of the 88:00students are different now. I still tend to expect a lot from students in terms of what they put out. But I find that my impression is that the present day 89:00student does not wish to work as hard as I expected to work or that my teachers expected me to work. The present day student is more concerned about grades than knowledge and because of that and because of my own background, I always felt that I was making a very significant contribution as a professor.

I always felt a little antagonism because of what I expected of students and what they expected of their professors. I was considered somewhat of a hard-nosed professor. For me, it was not being hard-nosed. It was what I had 90:00learned as a student and what was expected of me as a student.

Tamara: Keeping standards is very important to you?

Yates: To me, yes. I'm sure that had there not been those standards throughout my life, I would not have been nearly as succcessful. So I see them as being very important.

Tamara: You served on the Board of Visitors at Virginia Tech from 1983-1987. 91:00Does anything stand out from this experience--any action you felt that you might have been able to influence or any action that sticks out that you thought was important?

Yates: As I've thought back to that experience, it was a very good experience. I think the Board and myself, as a part of the Board, probably relied a lot on the information that was given to us by the administration in terms of what the direction of the university needed to be--that we were able to support the administration in that regard. I guess what I'm really asking myself, did the Board really take the initiative to do anything drastic in terms of trying to 92:00change the direction of the University? I say no, we more or less supported the administration in terms of the kinds of things they had set out to do. There were some controversial things associated with my tenure on the Board that tend to stick out in my mind more than they should--but they do. Like the situation with the former athletic director, Bill Dooley. At the time, he was essentially asked to resign as Athletic Director.

Yates: That was a contentious time, and also the questions surrounding the land 93:00swap that occurred during my tenure on the Board. All of the property which is now part of the mall and that whole area had been university land, and that land was swapped for some farmland on the New River. Especially in hindsight one can look at that and sort of feel that the university probably got the short end of that deal. We could have done a lot better.

Tamara: That was controversial at the time?

Yates: That was somewhat controversial at the time, yes, and still 94:00controversial, in my own mind.

Tamara: You've really experienced the university under several very different administrations, Dr. Newman through Dr. Torgersen. I wondered if you had any reflections on how those administrations affected making cultural diversity possible at the university. Were there any that seemed particularly strong or proactive or even impeding growth in this situation?

Yates: For about twenty years I didn't have a lot of contact with the university. A large part of that time, Marshall Hahn was president. My understanding of history is that great strides were made during that time. At the time that I reestablished my association with the university, when Bill Lavery was president, there had been obviously tremendous change from my previous association with the university as a student. In terms of diversity, at 96:00the point that I came back to the university, there was obviously a big change generally in the environment of the university, including diversity among the faculty and the students.

Although I always find it sort of interesting that during that time when I had a daughter who was enrolled as a student...she graduated in 1981...one of her big complaints here was the lack of diversity, which I never could quite understand.

Tamara: In terms of racial diversity?

Yates: Yes, student body-wise. There were hundreds of African American students then, yet I found it manageable with only four such students. I never did quite 97:00understand that. I think that the administrations that have followed Lavery's administration--I think have done a good job in terms of increasing diversity amongst the student population and faculty and staff. I recognize the difficulty associated with attracting students, faculty, and staff to Virginia Tech primarily because of the geographical location, and I sometimes think that there is probably a bad rap when we are compared with say, UVA [University of 98:00Virginia] regarding the diversity issue. Primarily because of the geographical location, it is very difficult to attract many minorities to this area of Virginia.

Tamara: Because it's so cut off?

Yates: Yes.

Tamara: What do you feel is the greatest challenge that's confronting the university now? What are the greatest opportunities in general terms that the university faces now?

Yates: Well having recognized that it is a difficult job that the university has, obviously it makes for much more ingenuity in trying to attract minorities 99:00to the university. It makes for a tough job, but it's one I think the university is committed to and ought to be obligated to, and therefore it's good to work and continue to work on that problem.

Tamara: I read somewhere that (and this was a few years back) you made the comment that at this point the problem was not so much recruitment as retention. 100:00I think you were specifically thinking of engineering students in this article I read.

Yates: That is a problem. That's another one. I'm not really sure what the answer is. I know that the College of Engineering has put a lot of resources towards recruiting and retaining minority students. Bevlee Watford especially has done a great job in that regard. But retention is still somewhat of a problem, and it's not only at Virginia Tech. I think it's true of engineering schools across the country.

I've talked previously about how I see the psyche of the present day student as different from back when I was a student. I think that's especially true of minority students because in many cases they have come from environments and schools where there has not been proper emphasis on learning, as much as on getting good grades. As a result of that, when they get into an environment that exists in engineering schools, generally, it is difficult to cope. There is a 102:00basic understanding that you have to have if you're going to do well in engineering. It's got to be understanding and not what your grades were in school.

Tamara: So somehow that must be addressed with the students. That is the challenge, to work with the students in some way. If we think of it in terms of what the challenge of the university is with underrepresented groups, it's sort of to change their whole perception in a way. Is that accurate to say?

Yates: Whose perception?

Tamara: That student's perception of knowledge rather than why they are pursing the whole thing. Is it the grades? Is it the knowledge? If they are going to be 103:00successful in that kind of world.

Yates: Well, I suppose if I were really pressured, I would have to say that probably by the time the students get here, there is not a lot more than what we are currently doing that can be done. It's probably too late. Before we are going to improve significantly on our success in retaining minority students, somehow we are going to have to influence their education in the secondary school environment.

Tamara: It can make the difference?

Yates: How do you do that? I think that it's been often recognized, the need for 104:00that, and there've been programs put into place to address that situation. But obviously, that is one that's going to take a long time before one sees any real benefits from that.

Tamara: I wondered how you regarded the campus climate here regarding African American faculty and staff. The first black faculty was Overton Johnson in 1969, and then you came in 1979. I know you were president of the Black Faculty and Staff Caucus in Virginia Tech in 1988 through 1990. How did you view the climate 105:00here in regard to black faculty and staff?

Yates: From what perspective?

Tamara: I suppose from the perspective of professional advancement and the supportiveness of the community.

Yates: I can only speak personally in this regard. I never felt that I was at a big disadvantage in terms of my being able to advance my professional career. 106:00Personally, I think I made some technical errors in regard to my career here at Virginia Tech. Especially since I came back in 1987. At that point I was 50 percent faculty and 50 percent Director of Minority Engineering Program. That turns out to be probably a situation that one typically does not want to be in.

I was expected to develop a research program pretty much at the level of a full 107:00time faculty while having these other administrative responsibilities. That was not a good situation to be in, and it was one that I felt I let myself into and I shouldn't have. As a result, any consequences of that I have to bear the responsibility as much as anyone else. But it is difficult for me to speak about the climate for faculty, especially other than my own personal experiences.

It's not like I had the opportunity to talk with other black faculty in 108:00engineering in terms of how much support they were or were not getting. Typically I'm out there by myself, so it's a matter of how I perceive my own situation. I try not to take that too far in generalizing what sort of relationship black faculty have here at Virginia Tech. Mostly by hearsay I gather that the feeling generally is that the support is not there. But I can only accept that as hearsay. I really don't have any immediate knowledge of those situations.

Tamara: So in your own case you were really taking on two jobs?

Yates: That's a bad move. [laughter]

Tamara: A difficult move to do. You mentioned about your daughter's perception as a student here in the 1980s. I believe that you had another daughter, Tracy who went to Hampton in Business Administration and a son, Christopher who graduated from Hampton in Communications Studies. I wondered about your perception as a parent seeing a traditionally all black school like Hampton, which I think is still all black, compared to going to a school like Virginia Tech which is mostly white, some black. I know in the 1980s there was a lot more 110:00students than when you were here. I think probably the school changed rapidly.

Yates: The Virginia Tech population was probably already 18,000, roughly. I have to be a little careful because I'll end up slamming my kid's alma mater. [laughter] I would have to say that generally the education that present day kids get at a predominantly white institution like Virginia Tech is quite superior to what they would obtain from a predominantly black institution like Hampton. I say that not only on the basis of what I know about the education 111:00that my kids have obtained and their feelings about their education but also on the basis of having been a faculty there.

For me it's very simple. When I talk about my high school educational background, I attribute my success to my teachers there. Very highly prepared, over prepared--and that's what generally I think forms the basis for a strong education. The preparation, the ability, the experience of the teachers. In the present day environment, good teachers tend to be lured away to the 112:00predominantly white institutions; especially a good teacher, say at Hampton University, more often than not is going to end up at a Virginia Tech because the conpensation is that much better. That's life, and we talk about it in terms of our education system all the time now. Secondly, the school systems, we say, don't have good teachers because the better teachers are lured into high tech areas where they do better. I think it's also true when you start comparing the institutions of higher education. It's just that simple. The better prepared the teachers are, the better the educated students you'll get at the institution.

Tamara: The teachers have to go where they can get...

Yates: Yes, generally they do. Of course not everyone does. There's always that dedicated person who is going to be somewhere because they are just dedicated. But in real life we often tend to go where we are better compensated.

Tamara: You were a visiting professor of Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics at University of Pretoria at the Republic of South African in the spring of 1996. I wonder if you could make any comments or observations from that experience. I imagine there is a totally different educational scene than here.

Yates: There are several things. I can talk about that short experience from several aspects...education in general. I always found it interesting that many of the faculty were complaining about the same kinds of things faculty were complaining about students at Virginia Tech in terms of expectations of students, what they want and what they put into it. That's the same. That was very interesting. The visit was a very interesting experience in terms of minority engineering because there's a situation where in the past the blacks in 115:00Africa had not been attracted to engineering. They did not really see engineering as a profession that was highly respected. They are more likely to go into law or medicine or some areas such as that. On the other hand, since the blacks have taken control of the government in South Africa, obviously in the interest of the economy growing and advancing there is going to be a very large need for the blacks to become involved in engineering. So it was a very 116:00satisfying experience to me because one of the things I was trying to do was to go around the country...I did extensive traveling across South Africa...talking to high school and college kids about engineering. Black kids, trying to impress on them that it is a rewarding profession, important profession, and I hope I was a little bit successful. I was very well accepted all over the country. It was a really great experience for the majority blacks and I, as well as the minority whites.

Tamara: Do you think the fact that I'm not a black interviewer...did that make a difference in how or what you'd say in the interview.

Yates: No. I have interacted with whites for a very large majority of my life. While I can not say I'm colorblind because there's always, subconsciously at least, the awareness of this difference. I think I've learned these many years pretty much how to live with my white brother as well or as easily as with anyone else. Again, it's always subconscious even now when I walk into any kind 118:00of setting when I'm the only black there. I guess one has to still do a little adjusting. It's not the same as walking into an environment where you are in the majority. It's always--that's life, and I think, hopefully I've learned to live it as well as can be expected.

Tamara: You're retiring or you did retire from the University?

Yates: I did retire.

Tamara: What kind of plans do you have?

Yates: Well, one of the reasons I retired as early as I did...actually, it's not really all that early because I'm sixty-four this year...I was diagnosed about 119:00four years ago with a chronic disease. While it really hasn't affected me yet, I don't know how long that will last. I decided that I wanted to spend time with my family members as much as possible. Hopefully, that's still quite awhile however long that is. I have nine grandchildren and one great granddaughter. I'd like to spend a lot of my time with them.

Tamara: Where do you plan--are you leaving the area?

Yates: I plan to return to the Norfolk area, probably Chesapeake, Virginia. That's where my siblings are. My kids are scattered around across the country. But that will be the base from which I'll try to spend more time with the kids 120:00and the grandkids.

Tamara: One thing I didn't ask you about was the Minority Affairs Committee. Was there anything important that stands out in your mind that the committee addressed?

Yates: Which Minority Affairs?

Tamara: That was here at Virginia Tech.

Yates: In the College of Engineering?

Tamara: I don't know. It wasn't clear in the thing I looked at. Maybe it wasn't in the College of Engineering. Were you instrumental in getting the Engineering Minority Center started?

Yates: I was the one associated with the program when it first started. But, Bevlee Watford joined the program shortly after the center opened, and she pretty much took over from there.

Tamara: Is there something else you wanted to add that I haven't asked you about that you feel is important?

Yates: I think you've done a great job covering it all!

Tamara: I did wonder -- somewhere it said Torgersen started this minority consortium with seven Virginia corporations that provided engineering scholarships to qualified engineering students. This has been active for seven years. Has anything filled in that gap to your knowledge where business is funding...?

Yates: Well I'm sure that businesses are still funding some of the programs that Bevlee Watford is carrying out. She has a dual role as Associate Dean of Engineering, but she still directs the Minority Engineering Programs. I know there are a lot of companies that support that program.

Tamara: Earlier when I asked you to comment on your professional career here, you talked about the teaching aspect of it. I was wondering about the research aspect of it.

Yates: Well, one of the things that happened as a result of my getting involved 123:00in two jobs was that I got behind in my research effort. I was never really able to get it back on track.

Tamara: That must have been frustrating.

Yates: Yes, I know that was one of the reasons I was not as successful as I could have been as a faculty. In fact I never did make full professorship--the research.

Tamara: Did you want to comment at all on the changes you have seen in the College of Engineering? In another interview you did, you mentioned that when 124:00you actually left Virginia Tech as a student and went to Cal Tech you didn't feel yourself, at that point, perhaps as prepared as you would have wanted to be. It seems there has been a radical change in the department as a whole.

Yates: There has been a radical change in engineering here. Not unlike that which has occurred in many universities in the 1960s when those changes started. It was just a part of the natural evolution of a lot of the engineering colleges where they evolved from more of hands-on programs to more technically oriented programs.

Tamara: Maybe that's happening in places like South Africa, too. You said it wasn't viewed there by students who wanted to be doctors, lawyers--maybe I'm not making the connection there. Maybe it's not a hands-on but more a technical or theoretical aspect.

Yates: Well that's what's probably needed there. The kinds of occupations the blacks have been involved in South Africa in the past would probably be more of technicians as opposed to engineering. Technicians are very much hands-on.

Tamara: When you went over there what you were doing is going around talking with people?

Yates: My trip was funded partially by the University of Pretoria where I taught a couple of courses, but also it was sponsored by the South African Institution of Mechanical Engineering.... I believe that's correct...a professional organization very much like what in this country we have in the ASME. They have in South Africa, an all white organization because again the blacks...