Oral History with Michael Herndon, September 20, 2000 (Ms2002-001)

[Tape 1, Side 1]

Cook: I'm interviewing Michael Herndon today and first I'd like to talk about where you are from originally.

Herndon: I'm originally from Farmville, Virginia, which is about two and a half hours from Blacksburg, about an hour from Lynchburg.

Cook: Did you grow up there?

Herndon: Grew up there, born and raised there and stayed there until I was 17 and went off to college.

Cook: Did you have brothers and sisters?

Herndon: Yes, one brother and one sister and they're all older. I'm the youngest of three.

Cook: You're the baby. [Laughter]

Herndon: I'm the baby.

Cook: Did your sister and brother go to college?

Herndon: Yes, both my brother and sister went to college. My brother and sister went to Virginia State University in Petersburg.

Cook: Both of them?

Herndon: Both of them went to the same school. I almost went there but at the last minute went to another school.

Cook: Tell me about your parents.

Herndon: My parents are both retired. My mother is a retired fourth grade 1:00teacher. She taught for 37 years in the public schools in Prince Edward County and also in Fredericksburg. My father is a retired LPN. He worked at a psychiatric hospital for a little over 30 years. He's retired--both of them are living the wonderful retired life.

Cook: That's wonderful, a LPN, he must have some good stories.

Herndon: When I always hear people talk about non-traditional roles I always talk about my parents particularly my father being a nurse. Even being teased by some of the kids at school about your father being a nurse.

Cook: My two little boy's father is a LPN. They really want male LPN's now.

Herndon: They do.

Cook: What school did your mother go to?

Herndon: My mother went to Bluefield State College in Bluefield, WVA.

Cook: Did she do that before her children were born?

Herndon: Yes. After graduating from high school she worked for about 3 or 4 years to raise money to go to college. So she worked and went to college and in between summers worked in Vermont at a hotel resort there. She worked in the kitchen doing domestic kind of things. She did that in the middle of her college semesters because the money was better up north than staying in Virginia.

Cook: Did her siblings go to college as well?

Herndon: Yes she's the fourth of four children. She's the baby too in the family. My oldest aunt went to college. She went to Hampton, which is now 3:00Hampton University but at the time it was The Hampton Institute. She graduated from there and later went on--a few years later--to NYU. This was back in the early sixties. She graduated with a degree in Special Education in 1962. Then my aunt next to her got married, had three children, all of her boys grew up and graduated from high school. Not one of them wanted to go to college so she said, "I'm going to go to college." She had gone to a technical school and had her LPN license. She later wanted to get a bachelors degree in nursing and she later went on to the University of the District of Columbia and got her Bachelor of Science in nursing. She became a RN. She worked, I guess, at least about twenty years beyond that until she retired as a RN. Then my uncle didn't go to college. He went into the military. He spent considerable years in the Army. He was 4:00discharged from the Army, honorably discharged, I might add. When he left the service he went back to working for them as a civilian. He worked in the food preparation services at Fort Belvoir, which is outside Washington. He did that until he retired. Then my mother, of course, went on to school.

Cook: This is a little out of context, but I want to know. Who was your childhood hero?

Herndon: My childhood hero? I have so many heroes I don't know if I could single 5:00it down to one.

Cook: You can say more than one. A role model?

Herndon: Some of the people that come to mind of course Martin Luther King. I always think about him and what he did for all Americans not just black people in this country but for everyone who has a cause they want to fight for. I think about him. I think about other people in the civil rights movement. Rosa Parks for what she did for people. But then close to home I think about my grandparents on both sides of my family. When you really talk about heroes I always think about the real heroes, are those people who touch your lives everyday in a substantive kind of way. So I think about my grandparents and the 6:00kind of life they led so that their children and their grandchildren could have a better way of life. I think about the personal sacrifices even within my own family. So when I think about Martin Luther King and Rosa Park's and people like Nelson Mandela and John Kennedy. Even though John Kennedy died the year before I was born but his legacy still lives on. I think about John Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Mandela. These are the national and international kinds of luminaries and heroes but then I bring it back to a very personal local level. I think about my grandparents, my parents, my aunts and uncles, people from my local church, my community, my neighborhood. Those are the people who are the true heroes because they've been able to accomplish so much with so little and how they've been able to pull something within me to make me want to do the things that I do today. Those are the people who have had the long lasting impressions on me.

Cook: Now I'm curious about your grandparents, so you have to say something about your grandparents.

Herndon: Well my grandparents on my mother's side, my grandfather went to seventh grade. Of course at that time schools only went up to the seventh grade. There were some areas where they had elementary schools and high schools and 7:00then when high schools were introduced, for the most part only the well to do white families sent their kids to high schools--but for the most part up to seventh grade. My grandfather finished the seventh grade. Finishing the seventh grade education was somewhat of a big deal.

Cook: What year would that be around?

Herndon: He would have graduated from seventh grade in the early 1900s. If my grandfather were alive today he would be about maybe 105,110 I guess. My grandmother would be somewhere around that. This would be back in the early 1900s. I would say somewhere around the 1900s, 1910-1912. my grandmother went to 8:00third grade. Of course, even though seventh grade was also available, a lot of people came from agrarian families and worked on farms. There were things to be done in the fields. They were just taken out of school because they had to work for the family because that was their livelihood. So I think what my grandparents did for me in terms of raising four kids on a meager income--My grandmother did domestic work, worked doing laundry for different families in the community. Plus she had a regular family she worked for all the time, even spending holidays with them. And of course she had her other laundry business on 9:00the side, cleaning and doing laundry for other families. My grandfather worked for a contractor, building homes in the area. Even though my grandfather wasn't a contractor but he worked with that company. He went around doing construction work and things like that.

Cook: Was this all in the Farmville area?

Herndon: All in the Farmville area.

Cook: So your history goes back.

Herndon: Goes back right--even goes back to my grandparents and great-grandparents. I'm glad I can piece that together as far as my personal history.

Cook: It's unusual nowadays.

Herndon: Right--for people to talk about grandparents and great grandparents. My mother, aunts and uncles, they tell me about their grandparents who are my great grandparents. So that's how I'm connected to them, through the oral tradition and stories about what happened when they were kids, what my great grandfather did for them and different things like that.

Cook: Have you written this done yet?

Herndon: Haven't written it down. That's one of the things I would like to do as 10:00far as an oral history putting it down on paper. One of the things I really want to focus on are some of the oral traditions and some of the stories that are told of the lessons one can learn that can apply to any family or any group of people. Some of those life lessons that are told through life stories. I'd like to put that down in writing one day.

Cook: So it's not lost for your children.

Herndon: Right, right. Now my grandparents on my father's side, my father is the ninth of twelve kids. My paternal grandparents were sharecroppers. What is really interesting on that side of the family -- the Herndon's in that area -- the black Herndon's, of course, are descendants of slaves. When my father was born he was born on the land of the original Herndon slave master because the big house, if you want to call it that, was just a few yards away. So you had the white Herndon's over here who were descendants of the slave owners and then 11:00you had the black Herndon's. Of course, my father was born a free man, because slavery was done away with but that's an interesting piece of history in connection to there and these Herndon's are in the Lynchburg/Campbell County area--Amherst, some of those areas. If you were to go look in the Herndon phone book section of that area, you would be calling both white and black Herndon's. All of those Herndon's are associated in some kind of way.

Cook: Can you actually go to that area? Can you see where your dad was born?

Herndon: Yes, he took me there, about five or six years ago. Both houses were torn down. The house that was the original house of the slave owners, I guess if you want to call it that. At that time, these were the sharecroppers and the people who owned the land, their home. Of course, they had the sharecropper 12:00houses or shanties spread out. He told me there was just an open field. He said, "I was born right here. Across here on the other side of the field was the man who owned the land and his family lived over there." My father was born in the 1920s.

Cook: With your family -- you could just do a study of black/white relations in one area. That is really interesting. I just got this book out of the library that is talking about a black sharecropper family.

Herndon: Yes!

Cook: What did you want to be when you grew up?

Herndon: Originally, I thought about doing something in the medical profession but chemistry helped me to decide I didn't want to do that [laughter]. Then I thought about other areas. Ultimately, even as a fourth or fifth grader I had a desire to go to college. I really didn't know what I would major in but I knew that whatever I majored in I wanted to do something that would help people. I always saw different things that people were going through and I thought that I wanted to use my efforts and education to help other people. I think it has come through the tradition of my family. Everyone who has had the opportunity to go 14:00to college always saw it as not only an opportunity for self advancement but what can you do to contribute to your community.

Cook: What a good legacy!

Herndon: That was ingrained in me at an earlier age.

Cook: Where did you go to high school?

Herndon: I went to Prince Edward County High School in Farmville.

Cook: Was it a predominantly black or white school?

Herndon: When I went there, it was a predominantly black about sixty-five percent blacks, well about 60-40. Now it's more fifty-fifty. Well, it's really not even fifty-fifty; it's much more diverse now then what it was. Pretty much it was a black/white configuration. Now we have more Hispanic students there, more Asian students. So we have a good cross-section of different kinds of students who go there, so it's good.

Cook: Are you seeing Mexican migrant workers?

Herndon: There are some. We have a Mexican migrant population; small population there and they have some of their students in the school.

Cook: What was your school life like?

Herndon: High school?

Cook: Yes.

Herndon: I think I had a typical traditional high school experience. It was good. I was in the band. I was in the Forensics program there. We would go to different places to--

Cook: Debate?

Herndon: Yes. I enjoyed that. I was involved with--I was one of the guinea pigs of--when our school introduced the Latin language. I was one of the first students to sign up and go through the Latin curriculum there and I thought that was good. Also, I was in the honors program, which was pretty much like college prep throughout. So I had a good high school experience overall--looking back. 16:00In fact, this weekend I'm going to my high school reunion.

Cook: Oh that should be interesting! Which one?

Herndon: Now this is really interesting. It's really the eighteenth reunion but they weren't able to pull off the tenth reunion or the fifteenth and they didn't want to wait until the twentieth. So right in the middle of the fifteenth and twentieth, they're going to have the eighteenth.

Cook: How long has it been since you've seen your classmates?

Herndon: Several of them I haven't seen since graduation night. Others I've seen here and there, going home on the weekends or if we were all there on certain holidays, I would see people in the grocery store or see their parents and ask about certain individuals.

Cook: That's always interesting! Did you have both black and white teachers at your high school?

Herndon: I did. I had, I think, a good balance, of black and white teachers.

Cook: I think you already answered this, has Prince Edwards County changed much 17:00since you were in school?

Herndon: Yes it has changed. Test scores are higher. We have students now leaving from that high school and more of them are going to college. More of them are being accepted into more elite, prestigious universities then in the past. So things have changed and race relations have improved. So it's changed considerably.

Cook: Now, was Prince Edward County the one that closed down for a year?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: Do you have any memory of that?

Herndon: Well, it closed down for five years and I was born the year the schools reopened. So I don't really have any memory or recollection. I only know what I've read and the stories people have told me.

Cook: Your mother was a teacher during that time?

Herndon: Right. So she lost her job because when the schools were closed, all the teachers, all the school personnel, from bus drivers to teachers, principals, whomever was on the payroll of the public schools, they no longer 18:00had a job.

Cook: That must have really affected your family. I seem to remember that at some point, she commuted to another county.

Herndon: That's right, she left and went to Fredericksburg and stayed there five years and drove back and forth on the weekends with another teacher who left the area and went to Fredericksburg. The two of them car pooled together. At the time, my brother and sister weren't of school age initially but then my sister became a first grader and my mother took her. Then she came back for my brother. So they were with my grandparents.

Cook: Your mother is an amazing woman If I can remember correctly from your class, they closed down because they didn't want to integrate. Is that correct?

Herndon: Right, right! They essentially defied a Supreme Court ruling that gave 19:00certain counties and school districts, a timeline to integrate or to have a plan of integrating for blacks and whites to go to schools together. Rather than integrate, they just said, we won't have public education anymore. So, they were really the only county in the whole country, pretty much that defied the Supreme Court ruling. So of course, they had to have federal representatives, people from the State Department and so forth to come to Prince Edward County to have the schools reopen.

Cook: And that took five years?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: I remember your mother, she's amazing and your aunt as well. Which aunt was that?

Herndon: Now that's the aunt who put me through NYU.

Cook: She's a maiden aunt or did she marry?

Herndon: She married and she's widowed and she's a character!

Cook: My impression is that you have strong women role models in your life.

Herndon: Strong women role models!

Cook: I haven't met your father but--

Herndon: Strong women role models. Women who aren't afraid to speak their mind. Who have this depth of soul where they can just take on any kind of situation and they aren't afraid of anyone. They respect people and they're courteous. For example my mother mentioned a couple weeks ago that she had gotten to the age, you know, she had earned her right to say what she wanted to say. That she wasn't going to hold back anymore. That she had held back for so many years but she's now at a point where she has come to the place where she can say what she feels. She doesn't have to mince words.

Cook: How's that? [laughter]

Herndon: It's still courteous, you know, and respectful of others. But speak what's on your mind and tell it like it is. So she has encouraged me to start doing this at an early age and not wait until fifty/sixty years to get to that place. But to speak what's on your mind and to let other people know, whether they agree or disagree, that's okay but at least you've said what you have to say. Plus you're a healthier person for it because whatever was troubling you in your spirit; mind or body is released. It's no longer bottled up and that helps 22:00you in many respects. From a physical standpoint, it doesn't run your blood pressure up. From emotional to mental, there's not something on your mind that bother's you, keeps you restless at night. You go to that person if you have a grievance. You tell that person what the issues are and identify the issue and point out the issue, and not necessarily attack the person verbally or physically.

Cook: How are you doing with that?

Herndon: Doing really well with that. I'm really pleased with the way I can confront people about certain things and still walk away with my dignity and integrity intact and also with their dignity and integrity intact. Hopefully, there's some mutual respect there between the two people.

Cook: You need to teach a seminar because there's people on both sides that need to learn that.

Herndon: Yes, it's like poison in your system that's bottled up. So what I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to allow that person to run my blood 23:00pressure up. I'm not going to allow that person to have that kind of control over me. I'm not going to allow anyone to have that kind of control over me. So in order to diffuse the bomb, get rid of the pressure, then go to that person and lay the cards on the table. If they aren't willing to listen, then I'm responsible for then taking someone else with me as a witness or at least some other person who is a neutral party who has nothing to deal with the issue, who can sit down as a mediator for the two of us to work out whatever problems we need to resolve. Then if that person refuses to come to the table and want to resolve any kind of issue, then at least I've done everything in my power to approach that person and resolve that issue. My conscience is clear. The guilt is gone. Maybe the issue isn't resolved but at least I've done everything 24:00humanly possible to bring a resolution to that situation.

Cook: Is this how your mom has positively influenced you?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: It has probably really changed your life.

Herndon: It's made me a healthier person. I feel so much better and you can do it in such a way that people don't have to use profanity. They don't have to get all up in arms. They don't have to use violence. They can speak at the tone of voice that I'm speaking now. You say what you mean and mean what you say. You give that person an opportunity to give his or her perspective because people can look at the same image and perceive it differently. So at least that person is given the voice or the opportunity to share how they perceive the situation. 25:00It may be totally different from the way you perceived it.

Cook: You would be a good mediator and you're very relaxed.

Herndon: Thanks!

Cook: Was your neighborhood integrated?

Herndon: My neighborhood was, but it predominantly black. I would say my neighborhood was more predominantly black than my high school population. I would say that my neighborhood was ninety percent black.

Cook: When you were growing up did you have white friends as well as black friends?

Herndon: I did. I had white friends in the neighborhood who were neighbors and I also had white friends in high school.

Cook: Did you have any negative racial experiences while living at home, in high 26:00school or other grades?

Herndon: I had some racial experiences where at the time I didn't know that's what it was called. But now looking back, I know that they were acts of racism and racial incidents that took place. So, yes, I've been able to endure some racial tensions and try to work through those and going back to the point of resolution, some of those people are dead and gone. There is no way I can go back and resolve anything with them. But, at least within myself I have peace with certain situations.

Cook: Would this be more with peers or elders?

Herndon: Elders. Some people in grocery stores, department stores, and those kinds of situations. I was a paperboy in my early high school years and the 27:00route I had was a predominantly white neighborhood. I had some situations there going to collect the money for the paper because at that time people didn't necessarily send their money to the newspaper.

Cook: I had a paper route too. You had to collect it at the door.

Herndon: Right, at the door.

Cook: And hope you got a tip.

Herndon: Right, exactly. There was this one person, this man and he was like Satan's brother. I mean, he was just wicked! Every time without fail when I would go to collect the money, he would be so belligerent and nasty and his wife was equally nasty. She worked in one of the local grocery stores and even when customers came through the line she was nasty with people. There was a noticeable difference in the way she dealt with black customers versus white customers. It was the same kind of thing although I never heard the 'N' word spoken but it was the same kind of hostility that she had in that store when I'd go to their home to collect the money. It was a nasty ordeal. Those were the reasons why I quit the paper route. I felt that I'm not getting paid enough money to deal with this. There are other jobs, cutting grass and things like that.

Cook: They are probably dead and gone.

Herndon: Yes so I can't go resolve anything with them but at the same time I don't hold any anger, any animosity, any unforgiveness against those people because I'm not going to allow what they did to me cause me to go to hell. So, that's something they have to deal with between them and their Creator.

Cook: Good attitude! Where did you go to college?

Herndon: I went to Howard University, Washington, D.C. and I stayed there for seven years. I got my undergrad degree and my master's degree there. And after I graduated from graduate school there I worked at the University for a year. So wonderful seven years experience in Washington, D.C. and Howard University! Excellent!

Cook: Did you have any problems moving from a small town to D.C.?

Herndon: I did. I did! I was a small town boy from Farmville of all places and you can imagine how I was ragged on about the name of my town. [Laughter] Going to a big city like Washington and it was a great experience but it was also a cultural shock to me. It was culture shock in the sense that people always say how could it be a culture shock for you. I mean you're black and Washington, D.C. is predominantly black. It was still a culture shock because I saw more black Ph.D.'s under one location than I'd ever seen in my entire life. I saw black physicians, black attorneys, and just different kinds of black professional people that I'd only read about. I didn't see any of that in Farmville. Black college professors by the dime a dozen. These were people who 30:00had Ph.D's from Columbia, from Harvard, from Stanford, from pretty much all over the world. Also saw people who looked like me who had different accents--my first black Englishman speaking a true, authentic British accent, people from Caribbean, parts of Africa. It was really an eye opening experience for me.

Cook: Going to a predominantly black school and experiencing it would you like your children to experience that?

Herndon: I would. I really would. I'm not saying one is better than the other. But for me going to Howard University was one of the best decisions that I have ever made. Just as coming to Virginia Tech has been one of the best decisions I 31:00have ever made. I think that one of the advantages for me of going to a predominantly black university was that whenever a professor got on me about not writing or anything about my work I knew that race wasn't a factor. Race wasn't an issue because math was math and history was history, chemistry was chemistry, whatever the situation was. It wasn't racially motivated. I knew without a doubt that it wasn't racially motivated. Mind you, I had white and black professors at Howard University. In fact, my freshman year, I had three white professors and three black professors. Whenever they said, "Herndon you can do better than what you're doing", I knew that it wasn't racially motivated. I could clearly separate that this was an act or way for them to motivate me to do better than what I was doing. Whereas some freshman who come here--some students of color or minorities, whatever--which I don't really like that word but I'll tell you about that later--when some of them come here and if a professor were to say, Johnny or Susie, your writing is not up to par, they may not see it the way I saw it because they may think that this person is being racist. Why are they 32:00signaling me out? Where in fact, that person is doing the same thing that my Howard professor was doing but here because there are so many things in the environment, that people don't know what is racial, what is an act of racism, what is an act of sexism, what is an act of homophobia because there are all these different signals. All these things going on at the same time.

Cook: You're right!

Herndon: So at an HBCU, in a sense they controlled for race. Race wasn't really an issue because here it was a predominantly black institution so whenever they wanted to instruct me or correct me I knew that it purely was an act of instruction to make me a better student. Whereas here I think sometimes people may be confused. But since I have had the Howard University experience and now I'm here at Virginia Tech and I'm older it's now easier for me to distinguish 33:00between what is an act of racism or sexism and what is a situation where my advisor's telling me, you can do better than what you're doing. The same thing that my Howard professors told me. So I think by me being older I have an advantage of being out in the world and worked. I can read between the lines a little better than say, incoming freshmen or even the incoming graduate students who had the all white school experience.

Cook: Which makes you probably a better advisor to help people in similar situations.

Herndon: I just try to work with that to help students. When students come in and they say well I think that this person did this, that and the other, I say well a verb is still a verb and a noun is still a noun, an adjective is still an adjective. These are the rules of grammar. It has nothing to do with you being female. This has nothing to do with you being black. Has nothing to do with you being from Southwest Virginia, from Farmville, from Northern Virginia. These are the standard guidelines for evaluating a comprehensive paper in freshmen English 1105. It has nothing to do with--if you want to bring race in--to pull the race card, then you have to be prepared to really substantiate that kind of claim. You have to pull out the evidence. If you don't have that evidence you are going 35:00to perhaps falsely accuse someone who is simply trying to make you a better student. Now if it is clearly an act of racism, sexism or any other 'ism' there are channels and mechanisms within the University system and even outside the University to deal with those acts of discrimination. But if you do believe that you've narrowed that particular situation down to an act of racism and it meets certain kinds of standards, than you can proceed with whatever process you want to take.

Cook: Have you seen that happen here?

Herndon: Well, I've seen some people who have falsely accused, charged a professor or several professors. But on the other end, I've seen there've been true acts of racism and discrimination. They were so blatant and so obvious that 36:00anyone can see. It wasn't even the covert kind of racism. It was so blatant! It was laden with racist kinds of remarks, attitudes, and actions. In those cases, when I dealt with students--I told them, these are the options you can take or you can consider. It's up to you. If you sit down on it--I can't wage this war for you because I wasn't in the class. I can support you in it but I can't go and say Professor 'Do-dad' is a 'racist pig' and then a student isn't willing to step up to the plate and make the claim and provide the evidence. But if a student does take that action, of course, I'm one of the cheerleaders. I'm one of the people in the stands cheering that person on--trying to be that person's advocate, trying to make certain that resolution is brought to that situation.

Cook: Have you, yourself, experienced any racism here?

Herndon: I have. As a graduate student, I've experienced some racism. Not a whole lot of racism but any racism is too much. But I remember I was in a situation where I was one of a few males in the class. I was one of the few black people in the class. This was a graduate course and we met every week. You had to do readings and I always read my materials and came prepared for class. There was a student--a very good friend--a white female friend--she hardly read her readings for that week. Whenever there was time for class discussion of course I would contribute because class participation was part of the oral grade. So, the professor pulled me aside one day after class and told me I was 38:00outshining- I'll call her Mary (that's not here real name). I was outshining Mary and that in other words, I was making her look bad. But I couldn't tell her that Mary needs to do the readings just like everyone else. If Mary were to read the articles and the chapters before coming to class then she could contribute to the class as well. She even asked that I tone down my comments and responses to give Mary an opportunity to contribute and then she even said, I'm not saying this to you because you are black. But then I thought would she have made that same kind of statement to me if I had been a white female--

Cook: That's exactly what I was thinking.

Herndon: Or if I were any other kind of female or any other person of another ethnic group. But, to me, it was implicit within those comments that you as a 39:00black man, you're not supposed to know as much as Mary. You're not supposed to be in a situation where you sound halfway intelligent. You're not supposed to engage this class to the extent and degree that you are because you are black and you are male. You're making Mary look bad because Mary is supposed to be the model, the icon of virtue and so you're just kicking mud in her face. Well, I wasn't and that wasn't the purpose and she never said that to other people in the class, to other females in the class. She never said that to even other--there was no black female in the class but in fact there were only two blacks in the class and both were males. The other black male was vocal but he wasn't as talkative as I am.

Cook: In graduate school, I found that they love when people talk and contribute. That is the optimum.

Herndon: So I toned down my comments I didn't say anything for three weeks in a row. Then she comes and said to me, you're not contributing anything to the class. So I felt damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I talk, I get in trouble. If I don't say anything, I get in trouble. So what do I do? I came back; I don't want to make Mary look bad. Then she just kind of--well, we need your participation and you contribute so much to this class. Trying to clean it up, you know. I'm like no let Mary. It's her opportunity to shine. I'm going to be in the background. Let her do her thing. She's on center stage. Not that I ever wanted to be on center stage. But, I thought, well I'm going to be part of this class. I owe it to myself and I owe it to a lot of other people who could be here, who want to be here but can't be. So I'm obligated to do my work. That's how I look at every project, everything that I do. So, she would probably 41:00say it wasn't an act of racism or racist act. But I clearly thought--and I'm always one of the last people to call anything racist but that's one that I would put in the category of racism whether she was ignorant to it or not. It still happened.

Cook: Did you see her as favoring Mary at all?

Herndon: Yes, I always felt that Mary--

Cook: Who didn't do the reading--

Herndon: She didn't! She didn't. Mary came to class late. Mary came to class unprepared. Mary did all the "stereotypical" things that she thought I would have done. But it was just the opposite. So Mary--even with the research paper--Mary was scrambling trying to get some things together for her research paper. I even gave her some citations of some articles I have read that I didn't 42:00need and things like that. Of course, I never held any animosity toward Mary or felt that Mary was making me look bad and putting in this situation. It was really the professor of the class--because Mary and I, to this day, are really good friends. We've done a lot of things together but I don't like the way that the professor set that up--you can't be as smart as Mary kind of attitude.

Cook: Was the professor an older woman?

Herndon: I would say middle age which really surprised me because I expected this from an older professor closer to retirement and not someone--

Cook: That probably grew up in the sixties.

Herndon: Right. This person came through the sixties and at the time she started this class I think she was in her late forties, maybe about forty-eight.

Cook: Is that a singular incident or have you had other problems?

Herndon: I haven't had any other problems here at Virginia Tech. But certain 43:00situations maybe in Blacksburg or outside the Virginia Tech community.

Cook: Could you talk about some of those because that's one of my questions? How comfortable do you feel in the community?

Herndon: Overall, I feel comfortable being here. I think it is a safe place. A good place for family but for example, going into a store--the same kind of things. I remember one time I was in a Sears store. Maybe I shouldn't say the name. But that's okay. I was in Sears down in New River Valley Mall and I was going to buy a Father's Day gift. I had already gone to a couple of other stores and I had maybe two bags. I was looking at these shirts for my father and these shirts were over up against the wall. All of the sudden this salesperson comes up out of nowhere and she says, "May I help you!" in a tone of voice like 'what are you doing' kind of voice. I said, "You startled me, you can help me after I 44:00calm down!" Letting her know that just don't--

Cook: Her behavior wasn't appropriate.

Herndon: Yes! That's right. I ended up buying--I told her what I was doing and she automatically was so helpful showed me these specials for Father's Day and so forth and so I purchased the shirts and everything and I just told her don't come up on a customer like that and anything in this store I want, I can pay for?

Cook: Did she think you were stealing?

Herndon: That's what I think she thought because I had a bag from another store and I was looking up against a wall and there was no other employees over on that end and a lot of times they will either come and adjust a shirt and pretend they are straightening up a display. Usually then I start talking loud and saying stuff. Sometimes they've even gone over and said would you like me to 45:00situate this or clean this up since you seem to be have some problems in this particular area--especially when they start following me. That happened in Wal-Mart as well. There was this guy who followed my wife and me all over the place. He looked at us--it was almost like he was a stalker. So I just blatantly walked over and said you don't have anything in this Wal-Mart store that I want that I can't buy either with cash or plastic and basically stop following me. And he stopped.

Cook: Was he undercover?

Herndon: He was undercover and I just told him I don't have to deal with this when I come into this store. Another time I went to a local store. I won't call the name of that because later this lady and I have become real good friends. Went to this one store and get up in there and it's a furniture store and I start talking to her about what I want and what I need for our apartment and she 46:00said, "Oh you speak so well. Do you go to Tech?" And I said, yes, I do go to Tech. I said, "why do you say that I speak so well?" What's so different about my speech from other people who go to Tech or whatever? She never said it--

Cook: You knew perfectly well?

Herndon: I knew--that's right, she never said it and I was trying to push the envelope to get her to tell me but of course, she wasn't going to tell me. But from her perspective, in her mind, she hadn't seen black people who spoke the way I spoke. Not that I speak so well. I guess, she was expecting a certain hip hop, slang language--

Cook: She stereotyped--

Herndon: Right. That I could put a sentence together that made sense to her and 47:00to me and it was that stereotypical kind of--oh wow, you're not like the rest of them kind of attitude. Well, if I'm not like the rest of them, who am I like. Who are the 'them' that you're talking about? How do we classify this invisible 'them'? You have the black people, the Virginia Tech people--

Cook: Like that explains it--you're from Virginia Tech.

Herndon: Exactly. Situations like that but nothing really so overt where you know--

Cook: No problems with finding housing?

Herndon: No problem, which was a concern. I thought that I would be rejected because of race.

Cook: When you first decided to come to Virginia Tech--how did you decide to come to Virginia Tech?

Herndon: My mother is a very spiritual person and she told me, she said if you 48:00apply to Virginia Tech, I believe that you will get in. You will get in to Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech was the last place I applied. It's not that I didn't want to come here. I love the school but I didn't want to be in Southwest Virginia.

Cook: That was my next question!

Herndon: I applied to all these other schools. I applied to that school in Charlottesville. [Laughter] They turned me down!

Cook: They didn't! Good for you!

Herndon: Hindsight really I am so glad I'm here at Virginia Tech because other things have unfolded with the kind of opportunities I have at Blacksburg and at Virginia Tech I know that I was destined for me to be here. Despite the things that I tried to do not to come here everything was still pointing toward eighty-one and here I am! So in looking back over my situation, I realize, it's 49:00divine providence for me to be here in Blacksburg at Virginia Tech at this time at this stage in my life. I applied to that school, Mr. Jefferson's school, in Charlottesville and they told me no. I applied even to other schools that weren't as competitive as Virginia Tech. For example, VCU told me no. I applied at William and Mary and they told me don't even think about it.

Cook: They tell everybody that.

Herndon: Yeah! Those are the schools I applied to. I even applied to my alma mater at Howard. I really didn't want to go back to Howard because I already had that experience there; I wanted a different experience. I didn't apply for a Ph.D. program there. I applied for another Master's program in a whole other area. I got accepted there but it still wasn't what I wanted.

Cook: What was the program?

Herndon: That program was a master's degree in Organizational Communication.

Cook: Your undergraduate [degree] was in communication?

Herndon: Right! I got accepted and that was really my back up plan and I can 50:00always go back. But why go back for another master's when I could be using that time to go toward a Ph.D. So I applied there, got accepted and then I finally applied and got my paperwork in to Virginia Tech because my mother was on my case about, well have you applied--?

Cook: She had a vision!

Herndon: Yes so I applied here and I got in and everything else down to my furniture matching in my apartment--just those signs here and there showing me, yeah, you're in the right place at the right time. Don't you move, don't you mess up.

Cook: Were you married at the time?

Herndon: I was single when I came here. I was single for my first two years in Blacksburg. Got married two years after that. My wife came to Blacksburg and she didn't like it at first for a lot of reasons.

Cook: Where is she from?

Herndon: She's from my hometown, from my area, she's about fifteen minutes from where I live. So like a Blacksburg/Christiansburg kind of thing. She's from a town called Brookville and Brookville is about fifteen minutes from Farmville. She didn't like it initially because she didn't find the hair care products that she needed. She couldn't find stockings in the shades that she normally bought. For example, if she were to go to a store that she went to in Richmond, same chain of stores, they wouldn't have her color here in Southwest Virginia.

Cook: That's important to a woman!

Herndon: and the same with makeup and things like that. But things have gotten better. I remember there was something on the black graduate student list serve that came out last year. It was kind of humorous but then again it just spoke to the whole situation of black people in Blacksburg. This woman sent a note out 52:00that now Wal-Mart was carrying a certain brand of panty hose in a certain shade. Apparently this brand and shade were popular among a lot of black women on campus. So that was news to a lot of people because in the past when they went to Roanoke or whenever they'd go back home, they'd stock up on certain supplies.

Cook: So get that out to the community!

Herndon: Right. It was something as simple as that. I told Jean about that whatever that model and style, brand of stockings or pantyhose and she said, "Wow, I'm going to go down now."

Cook: So she is from Farmville area but she was in Richmond?

Herndon: Well, she worked closer to Richmond but she commuted back and forth. So whenever she went to shop, because her job was only about twenty minutes from 53:00Richmond, before coming home she would go to the mall.

Cook: How did you meet her?

Herndon: I met her through my now brother-in-law. When I worked at Longwood College my brother-in-law was one of my residents. I was a hall director there and he was a resident in the building and my wife she was a commuter student. He was a residential student and he said you should take my sister out.

Cook: Oh!

Herndon: So it kind of started from there. She would bring goodie packages from home

To leave there for him and many times he would be in class so she would bring it downstairs to my office and I would leave a note on his door that she had come by or either she would call and leave a message on his phone to pick up a package from me. So that's how we met.

Cook: Did you ever--were they goodies--like food?

Herndon: Yes, food goodies and there was always enough where my now 54:00mother-in-law put in enough for both of us--homemade pies things like that. Especially on Mondays, they'd have a lot of the Sunday dinner leftovers, which were really good!

Cook: That's wonderful! Is your wife a good cook?

Herndon: She is a very good cook.

Cook: I found that's really important.

Herndon: Yes! That's right! [Laughter]

Cook: You've answered a lot of my questions. Oh here's one. You mentioned [you worked at] Longwood College and I saw that when I was doing background research. What was that like, working at Longwood?

Herndon: It was good. A good situation and I enjoyed it. I gave Longwood College six years of my youth and it was great professionally.

Cook: After Howard? Oh okay!

Herndon: Yes I stayed there and worked in residence life and it was a good 55:00situation both personally and professionally. I was back home and professionally it gave me the opportunity to build upon what I had learned at Howard and now the experiences at Longwood helped me to build upon what I now have here at Virginia Tech. So I liked it. It was really interesting when I came back to Farmville; I had some of the same kinds of reactions from some of the local Farmville people particularly from some of the white residents. They knew my family name but according to them I didn't sound like any one from around here kind of thing. Again how does someone from around here sound? Because I think I have a very southern accent and it wasn't like I was sounding like someone from New York.

Cook: I think you do have a southern accent. Not as bad as Sam but you do-- [Laughter]

Herndon: But it wasn't anything like you know coming from New York or the Midwest but again I was saying things in such a way that whatever--

Cook: You didn't fit their definition.

Herndon: Right, right. A lot of times I like to do that just for shock value just to see peoples reactions. [Laughter]

Cook: That happens to me. My parents are from a rural community and people there--you're fine city ways or something like that. You were on the Prince Edward County School Board?

Herndon: Right. You've done your homework. [Laughter] I was on the Prince Edward County School Board and I was the first alumnus from my high school to be on the school board. All the other people who had been on the school board were retired people or people who had moved from other areas and had settled in Prince Edward 57:00County. So I was the first person who was actually a graduate of Prince Edward County to be on the school board because before Prince Edward County High School became Prince Edward County High School, it was named after a person called R. R. Moton. Then they changed the name from that to Prince Edward County High School. See Moton was pretty much the black high school and then after integration and all these other kinds of things started coming about the county then took over the school and then it became the Prince Edward County High School. I was the first and the youngest one on the board. I was appointed for two terms. I didn't finish the second term because I had the opportunity to come to Virginia Tech so I took that opportunity and I'm here.

Cook: Is it something you would do again--be on the School Board?

Herndon: It's something I would do again but not right now. It's a worthy position because you can affect positive change not only for students but also for teachers. You can be the advocate for every employee and student in the school system. You can be the vigilant person or the watchdog for curriculum if there's some funny things in the curriculum you can point that out. So I was glad about my Howard education and how my Howard education prepared me for that. So it is something that I would do again and it's something that I enjoyed. It was very time consuming.

Cook: Did you do it while you worked at Longwood College?

Herndon: Right. You had the regular monthly meetings but you also had committee meetings and I was also on the Student Academic and Personal Affairs Committee. That committee was pretty much responsible for hearing student judicial cases 59:00when students had gone through all of the different chains of command from the teacher to the principal up through the superintendent and these people were coming to the school board because they had done some things that were dismissible offenses. In many cases we had to expel students for a whole academic year.

Cook: Would they come with lawyers?

Herndon: Some would but mostly they would come with parents and maybe a grandmother. These were people who did some really bad things so we had to kick them out of school but also think of alternative programs for them to pursue their education. We had an after school program that allowed them to still continue but they weren't in the regular program where they came during the regular school hours.

Cook: It's funny I don't think the media talks about that--how the school does 60:00help the students who've been expelled.

Herndon: That's right. Most of them say the school expelled the student--

Cook: And just abandoned them. They're gone. I bet your mom being a teacher in Prince Edward County was very proud that you were on the school board.

Herndon: She was very proud and it's very interesting, the superintendent who was the superintendent when I was in elementary school was still the superintendent when I graduated from college, came back home and this same person in fact at one time he was my substitute Latin teacher. He's name is Dr. James Anderson and he really came in and rebuilt the school system and I've seen him as a student. I've seen him as one of my employers/bosses because I was also a substitute teacher between college semesters and now then I saw him, as I was his boss.

Cook: You were his boss?

Herndon: Yes it was really interesting! But I'm also his peer in the sense he's an educator and I'm an educator and he's really one of my supporters back home who supported me to come to Virginia Tech and do well and finish my degree and so forth.

Cook: Do you ever want to go back home when you have children and live there again?

Herndon: There are some days when I want to go back home. Like certain weekends I just want to be there and then other times I don't want to.

Cook: Well, I mean for good.

Herndon: Oh yes, when I see myself retiring or maybe closer to retiring to go back home and settle down.

Cook: And because your wife is from there, she would agree?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: So you left Longwood College and your position there to come to Virginia Tech?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: Your Ph.D. program is in the Department of Educational Leadership and 62:00Policy Studies?

Herndon: Right.

Cook: How have you enjoyed that?

Herndon: I've enjoyed that. Had a great time there, great time. And I'm ready to graduate!

Cook: What is that under? Is that Human Resources?

Herndon: Under Human Resources and Education, yes.

Cook: Is there anyone on campus--I don't know if mentor is the word--just anyone that has been important to you academically or otherwise?

Herndon: I can think of a lot of people. Some of the professors from different classes. Some of the names that just pop up--Dr. Joan Hurt. She is my dissertation advisor. I've taken courses with her. Dr. Don Creamer. I've taken courses with him. He's also on my committee. Dr. Elizabeth Creamer. She's another person.

Cook: Husband and wife?

Herndon: Husband and wife. I'm also supervised by her in my job here on campus. 63:00Dr. Delores Scott who is no longer here. But she was the Associate Provost for Retention and Support Programs. She's now at Virginia Union University as Vice President of Student Affairs. Another person on my committee that's been instrumental is Dr. Gloria Byrd. She's in Family and Child Development. I think of some other people, Dr. Katherine Allen has been a big sister type to me away from home.

Cook: You're lucky!

Herndon: Yes. I've had some really positive people who've encouraged me. Hayward Farrar in his special personality. He's done a lot for me and contributed to my academic and personal well being and I can think of other people like Dr. Barbara Carlisle in the Center for Interdisciplinary Studies.

Cook: Do you know Barbara Pendergrass?

Herndon: Dr. Barbara Pendergrass, she is another one. She and I go to the same church. Very positive, very upbeat and always the same, consistent and the way she deals with people and there's some others here on campus that I could think of.

Cook: Dr. Farrar was at University of Maryland when my sister was there. I found out recently that he was head of the Black Student Union.

Herndon: That's right.

Cook: Very militant.

Herndon: That's right, very militant.

Cook: Before he went into the Navy. I told my sister. She said, I know that name!"

Herndon: He was a rabble rouser then and a rebel rouser now. [Laughter]

Cook: Doesn't he always wear black to protest?

Herndon: Always. Right.

Cook: I just started to notice that and I thought Johnny Cash does that for a 65:00reason I wonder if Dr. Farrar does that too?

Herndon: Well he carries Johnny Cash's, the lyrics to that song, "Why I Wear Black" in his pocket and he also has those lyrics on his web site.

Cook: Oh, I didn't know that. I'll look it up.

Herndon: Yes and the same lyrics for the reason why Johnny Cash wears black are the same reasons why he does.

Cook: So he was influenced by old Johnny. Very interesting man, Dr. Farrar.

Herndon: Yes he is. I also think about people like Dr. Myra Gordon in the College of Arts and Sciences.

Cook: I met her once.

Herndon: Yes, she's another big sister type. Dr. Terry Kershaw, he's Director of Black Studies. He's like a big brother type.

Cook: Is he doing Women Studies right now?

Herndon: Right, the Interim Director of Women's Studies.

Cook: I've heard the best things about him!

Herndon: He's very positive, very upbeat and he's the kind of scholar, researcher that I want to be. I don't necessarily want to be him or take on his 66:00persona but he is doing the kinds of things that I'd like to see myself doing ten or fifteen years down the road--that I aspire to be in terms of a scholar, an intellectual. So he is a good role model. This is what you can be like if you just finish that dissertation type of thing.

Cook: Does he say that?

Herndon: Well he doesn't say that but he has encouraged me to go ahead and finish and say about the different opportunities that can come about by finishing what you've started. It's really interesting that all these people that I've named from Joan Hurt, the Creamers, Dr. Byrd and all these other people. They have really; really reinforced in a way, the things I've learned at home. Although my parents didn't have the opportunity to go to graduate school at Virginia Tech but the same kinds of themes, the same kinds of life lessons 67:00are learned in both places. So it hasn't been a conflict in what I've learned at home, the values of home and the values of the University, for the most part.

Cook: You have a very positive attitude, which comes through.

Herndon: Thanks.

Cook: As a professor too. So, you haven't had any negative problems, except with that one lady, with professors or advisors?

Herndon: For the most part I've had a very rewarding experience. And part of that experience was the way I embraced Virginia Tech. When I came here I told everybody that I'm a Hokie too. I am a Hokie too. Whatever is out there, whatever the benefits of a being a Hokie, I'm going to take part of that. I'm not going to sit on the sideline and say I'm not going to be a part of this because or I'm not going to allow my race or gender get in the way of letting me 68:00experience all of the great things that come along with being a Virginia Tech student and member of this community. So, yeah, a lot of negative things that are out there and I know a lot of horrible things that have happened that some of my friends have told me about some situations that I know to be true, that have happened to them. I'm saying that in my experience, it may not necessarily be the typical Hokie experience, but it's been a good experience. I know some people who have really been through hell and high water to graduate because of racism, sexism--

Cook: At Tech?

Herndon: Yes, it's very--on one hand it's very covert, very subtle and some of those things that are kind of --it's like a fine line you know, talking about 69:00the example, is this really a true act of racism. Then it could be a situation where this person is an equal opportunity harasser. Maybe they harass all kinds of people.

Cook: That's hard to prove.

Herndon: Yes. I know a situation where there is this one person who just doesn't do well with people PERIOD. But if a woman were to come up--and maybe that woman would perceive it as a sexist act or if a black person or a Hispanic person--they may perceive it as a racial situation but in this particular person's situation, he really--he's a bah humbug kind of person.

Cook: That's too bad he's up there, though.

Herndon: Right. He doesn't need to be here. Those kinds of people need to be out of here. They don't need to be at Virginia Tech. Yes, you can still hold the 70:00standard and maintain academic integrity and have a rigorous program but you can still do that in a way you don't crush people's spirits. You're not going to be mean and nasty, belligerent, hostile. You can do it in such a way you can encourage and motivate people to want to become better people and to not only improve their lives but also take those things that they've learned back to their communities. You don't have to beat a person down; you know and crush them emotionally to have them perform at a certain standard. I think that's what some people have done. They've confused academic rigor and hazing. For some people it's one and the same but I see it as two different things.

Cook: Well it's a shame. People like that need to retire or worse. Do you want 71:00to tell me--you talked to me a little bit about it already--but just a little bit about what your dissertation is on?

Herndon: Alright, my research is looking at the role of African American families in the life of college students. How do families influence the behavior of college students while they're in college? Particularly black families. What is it about those black family's interactions that impede or enhance a person's experiences while they are at the university? So I'm looking at the kind of support that students receive from their families and how that support relate to what goes on here at Virginia Tech. What kinds of values, lessons, influences have they learned at home and brought to the University and how if at all have 72:00those values and experiences clashed with experiences and values here at the University. How do people embrace a certain kind of academic culture here? How some of the values may be different from the kind of culture of being at home and how they draw the line for example how do they make decisions about when am I a family member when do I perform as a student. Sometimes those two roles conflict and overlap for all students, but particularly black students who are at predominantly white campuses where many of them seek and receive the support they need and the kind of support that sustains them. That support is not on campus. It's back at home with the family. What about those family interactions how do they shape students experiences while here at the university? So I'm 73:00comparing and contrasting the experiences of students at an urban university and students at a rural university and seeing if there's any differences between their family experiences based on institutional type.

Cook: So you have your own perspective as a student and you get to talk to other students about their perspective.

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: What about some of your results as far as Tech. What backgrounds are more successful or what?

Herndon: Well essentially what I've found, whether the family member or the parent went to college or not, pretty much if a student is receiving support for the most part they are excelling or achieving the kinds of goals they need to 74:00achieve academically. On the other hand if the student isn't receiving support, they may not be excelling but then again that may be a motivating factor for them to excel because they aren't receiving support. They may be on their own.

Cook: I was thinking--parents that maybe didn't go to college and maybe want their children to go to college and therefore, that's their support. Mom and Dad are saying you can do it, you can do it.

Herndon: Yes that's one of the things I've seen in my research both at the rural and the urban institution. If the parent didn't go to college and they are very supportive of their son or daughter in a way they are going to college through the life experiences of their son or daughter. What I've termed that theme is 'vicarious matriculation.' What I mean by that, in a way that son or daughter is 75:00representing that mother or father who didn't get a change to go to college. And the mother or father in a sense is still participating in higher education through the life of the son or daughter. So when that son or daughter graduates the mother is graduating even though the mother didn't go to college. But the mother did go to college through the blood that's running in the veins of that son or daughter on that campus.

Cook: I can absolutely see that and that's your own word -- vicarious matriculation?

Herndon: Right, vicarious matriculation and it's nowhere documented anywhere in the literature so I'm going to be the first one to put that down on paper.

Cook: That's wonderful!

Herndon: And you hear responses from students who say I'm doing this for mom. I'm doing this for grandma. In a lot of cases, grandmothers are instrumental in the college student experiences. So maybe grandmother didn't get to go to college but grandmother is doing everything she can to make sure that that 76:00grandchild has what he or she needs from a physical standpoint, spiritual, emotional, social standpoint in order to exceed and excel in this kind of environment. So that's one of the things that's really been exciting for me to come up and coin that term and put it down on paper and get it out in the literature.

Cook: Was it like a light bulb thing?

Herndon: Something just went off and I started thinking about what can I call it--what can I label this phenomenon that I kept hearing all these people over and over--you know this is really not about me. This degree is a family degree. It's not about me, it's about me and family. It's about my neighborhood, my community, the little kids who play on the playground and know I'm in college. They see me and they come back and they say if John or Jane can graduate and go 77:00to college, if they can do well, then I can do it to. So, even in this instance, others who are not even related to the student, but in some kind of way interact with the student (either as a church member or a neighborhood person), they in a way vicariously matriculate through the walls of higher education through the life of the student. Especially if that student is a first generation student they themselves are actually here in spirit. They're here emotionally. There also here because of the blood that's running in their veins but also because of the values that's been placed in that person to go to college and the kind of support, the lifeline that student has while they're in college. Even though their family may be hours away from the University and how it has baffled the 78:00higher education community because for the most part people say if you come to a university setting you must take on or adapt to the University. You must take on different values, severe the ties that you have back home. But for a lot of women and minority students those ties are essential for their success. So that is what I'm looking at and some of the things that are being revealed. For those students who don't have a close family network where they can drive home on the weekends, they developed their own fictive kin, extended family or make believe family. Not an imaginary family but for example as I mentioned earlier, Dr. Barbara Pendergrass and Dr. Laura Scott, those were two names that came out in our research where people said that these two women have been like big sisters 79:00to me. They've been like an aunt to me, a mother to me. They've taken me in under their wings; they've shown me these are the things you need to do in order to be successful. But beyond that they've cared for me just as a human being. So the kinds of things that they would have received say at home with their mother, with a godmother or with an aunt, they were receiving from these women here on campus. So again that's even groundwork for maybe another study for people to look at kinds of family relationships that students form on campus while they're in college and how those relationships influence their college career.

Cook: Seems like those strong family ties should be nurtured. Did you know that Kimberly Ware and Barbara Pendergrass are Sam's adopted sisters? Mrs. Cook is 80:00their adopted mom. She cooks for them because they're always cooking for other people at least Barbara.

Herndon: Right! She's always cooking every fish fry.

Cook: Have you ever had her trout?

Herndon: Yes, and her catfish.

Cook: That's what I mean, her catfish.

Herndon: Very good!

Cook: I did, but I didn't get enough.

Herndon: And her cabbage.

Cook: I've never had that. Is it fried?

Herndon: She has it in a stir-fry.

Cook: Well, I'm hungry now, I think we better move on. [Laughter] Now I'm thinking about fried catfish, really gone through my list here. Are you politically active?

Herndon: Not as much as when I was on the School Board--I was more politically active. But I'm politically active in my right to vote and I encourage others to vote and encourage voter registration. I've even gone to the point of handing out voter registration forms to the people to register or give out absentee 81:00forms so that people--to make sure that they vote back in their precinct at home. So I've been more politically subdued, you might say.

Cook: While you're getting your Ph.D.?

Herndon: Right but I do see when I graduate getting back in--for example, I'm a member of the NAACP but I haven't been really as involved in it as I want to be and going to committee meetings and doing other kinds of things because I've been bogged down with this graduate work but that's one of the things I want to be--

Cook: That's what you'll pick up--?

Herndon: Right. Because I was involved with that when I was at home, when I was working at Longwood College and on the School Board. In fact, it was an interesting situation where the local NAACP brought these charges against the School Board and I was also a member of the School Board and a member of NAACP. I was walking that fine line there. So I want to pick that back up and I 82:00encourage everyone to vote in the 2000 election.

Cook: I feel like you'd be a good writer independent of you Ph.D. because you have a lot of stories like just that one.

Herndon: Well thank you. I'm glad you mentioned that because right before you came over earlier today I was talking to a student about two books I feel I have within me that I feel that need to be developed. One book is a book I'm going to co-author with Dr. Farrar and James Moore. I don't know if you know James Moore? He just recently graduated.

Cook: Wait, did he teach the class with you?

Herndon: That's right, you know James.

Cook: Yes, yes. He's wonderful!

Herndon: Yes, I forgot about that you know James. He is now at the University of South Carolina as an assistant professor.

Cook: He's from South Carolina?

Herndon: That's right. He's about 80 miles away from home where he was raised, University of South Carolina. Columbia is about an hour.

Cook: I know exactly where that is. My first husband was from Columbia, South Carolina.

Herndon: Okay, well, he and I--we have this title that I came up with. I don't know if I should tell all of this because--

Cook: You can cross it out if you want.

Herndon: Okay, well the working title of the book is Hope Unborn: Reclaiming Our Destiny.

Cook: Wow, you have the title, okay!

Herndon: James' is going to write three chapters, Dr. Farrar is going to write three chapters and I'm going to write three chapters. We may have some other person write the intro, preface or forward. The whole premise of the book, in a nutshell, we're looking at say for example the kind of stories I told you about my parents, grandparents and so forth. They had less and they did more. This generation of people--we have more but we are doing less.

Cook: I'm seeing that in my reading.

Herndon: We have more opportunities. We have more-- just think about people who wrote a thesis even ten years ago on a word processor. The technological advances that a person can enjoy today because of what's out there on computers. Just think about different rewrites. If we had a whole lot of rewrites on a manual typewriter compared to cutting and pasting--

Cook: A nightmare!

Herndon: On a PC today--we have more technologically. We have more in a sense of tangible things that we can put our hands on and say look what we have accomplished. But on the other hand as a group, as a society, not just black people, including whomever, we are more morally bankrupt now in 2000 than we were in say 1900. You talk about families who would sit around the dinner table.

Cook: Visit on Sundays.

Herndon: Visit on Sundays and everybody is so busy, busy, busy, busy. Yeah, being busy is okay. But then I would ask, are you fruitful and productive in your busyness. People are just scurrying and running, to and fro, doing this, that and the other and the next thing you know the kids are grown up. What kinds of values have you been able to speak into their life, the lasting kinds of values, lessons for them to carry on to their children and their children's children. But we're just so busy, so busy doing nothing. That's why I ask, what have we accomplished. Have we been fruitful in our busyness? So the premise of this book is really going back to our fore-parents and looking at what they 86:00accomplished with so little and how we can develop a plan or model to tell people to get back on track. To put first things first, to have a plan for life if you want to call it that. This whole idea of hope unborn, the thing about the person as a baby. The person has the potential to become either positive or negative, whatever. When you think about hope unborn, that's 'unborn,' the hope that's in the womb. The possibilities, opportunities to become great, the opportunities for success. Those things that are already built into a child aren't nurtured or developed. What happens like Lorraine Hansberry says, dries up like a raisin in the sun. So we're trying to go back and remind people of the 87:00greatness not only in this country, but the greatness of individual family stories and how people were able to do a lot of things and not have the kinds of financial resources. But they had other kinds of resources. They had spiritual resources. If you want to look at it from that perspective. There were the kinds of resources--for example in my generation we haven't had to endure any of the things that my grandparents or even my parents had to endure.

Cook: Children dying, illnesses just even the flu, pneumonia, measles, whatever.

Herndon: That's right. We have all the technology and medical advances we have now. And just think about even with racism and sexism, they were legal and on the books. Somehow people were able to endure those harsh times and now today it 88:00just seems that people don't have backbone and stick to-itiveness. I don't know if that's even a word. But just to see something through to completion, the hanging in there, to not give up. There's an expression of hoping against hope. You can still hope even when all the odds against you suggest you shouldn't hope. That group of people, that generation of people still hoped.

Cook: Why are we so hopeless?

Herndon: Right. Yet we look around--all these things we have and how we can find things on the Internet to help people, provide information to people. We have more advances in technology; we have more advances in science. We have all these other things. Why do we just walk around hopeless and empty?

Cook: Yes and I've seen in my reading about black 'granny' midwives. It's social 89:00history. For instance a black woman, who had ten kids--how her husband would die she would carry on, how her children would help, how the farm would keep going. It was just incredible. Now what happens--? You're right. It's a wonderful subject! You are a writer! You'll have to go on circuit!

Herndon: Yeah and I have another book title that I want to develop. It's called the Evolution of Success.

Cook: Would that just be your book?

Herndon: Yes that's the book I want to write. I was looking at how people are successful. They get to one plateau but then they grow and they reinvent and retool themselves for another level, plateau of success. They reach that and they go on and on. I don't believe in the whole idea of evolution from Darwinism 90:00but I do pull from what he's talked about, the survival of the fittest and those that do survive and have been able to survive because they were willing or had the possibility to adapt to change. If people don't adapt you know regardless of your field, if there's a language to pick up, pick up that language, if there's new computer technology to learn, pick that up because people are going to be left behind if you don't pick up different things to do to reinvent ourselves and retool ourselves--. That's what I'm talking about with the 'evolution of success,' reaching plateaus and moving on to the next rung. In that I want to look at peoples personal histories and how they did that. For instance, for the housewife whose been at home 15-20 years and she says I'm going to college or I'm going to go back and get a master's degree or I'm going to open up my own business or I'm going to write a book, I'm going to do this that and the other. 91:00How they then move from one and it's not that you stop doing whatever it is that you're doing before. It's not an either/or. It's a both 'and.' It's adding on something else that to the foundation that you already have. So that's what I'm talking about that's unfolding.

Cook: My father retired and then two years later got his real estate license and now he's selling real estate. A good person would be Leni Sorenson. She just started college, she told me, when she was forty-six.

Herndon: Wow!

Cook: After she raised--four--how many children--I can't quite remember--but she started her undergraduate degree at forty-six.

Herndon: Forty-six. Wow! Now look at her.

Cook: Now look at her, she's wonderful. I love talking to her. So there you go. There's one person.

Herndon: Put her down! .

Cook: Just to talk to her, she has all these ideas and so much enthusiasm for living. I think that would be a great book because it would inspire other people too

Herndon: Get certain case histories and studies of people and say, "this is how they did it, so you can do it!"

Cook: Yes, I need to read things like that -- inspiration! Are you still the graduate student representative on the Board of Visitors?

Herndon: No longer. That was a one-year appointment. So people serve one year and then they appoint two more people, an undergrad and a graduate.

Cook: Can you talk about that?

Herndon: I had a great time doing that! I pretty much was the spokesperson for the graduate student population at the Board of Visitor meetings to let them know certain issues, certain concerns that were going on with the graduate student population. How they could shape policy related to certain things within the graduate student population. Even though I was for the graduate student population, I was also at times given the opportunity to speak for students, in 93:00general. So, that was a great situation for me. I enjoyed it, learned a lot, learned about policy, learned about the operation of the University from the top, a birds-eye view and seeing how when someone says we should have this that or the other kind of thing here at the University just the different chains of command and the different levels of bureaucracy that it has to go through before it reaches the Board of Visitors before they have an opportunity to vote the yea or nay -- So groundwork has to be done, research has to be done on that particular matter.

Cook: It's like a full time job.

Herndon: Right. Then it goes from committees. We have different committees here at the university. Like for example, the Commission of Student Affairs. They deal with student related issues so if the Commission of Student Affairs studies an issue and they recommend a policy. For example and that goes from the 94:00Commission of Student Affairs to the Provost, then to the President and the President will recommend to the Board of Visitors for that particular policy. Then that particular policy becomes 'a policy' in the graduate or undergrad catalog.

Cook: Very complicated! This isn't on my list but it just popped into my mind. You're a very good professor and I was wondering where you got your technique. Was it at Howard or did you just come to it naturally?

Herndon: I think from a combination of things. From my mother, from my mother being a schoolteacher and seeing her teach and also she's a Sunday school teacher and I'd see her teach on Sunday's and from other people that I pull from. From my aunt, from some of my Howard professors and even some people that 95:00I worked with at Longwood. So from a combination of people have influenced the way that I've approached people and approach students and approach a topic and how I teach.

Cook: I think that you are very student oriented but you're approachable and also demand respect and I think that's hard to balance.

Herndon: Yes, it's hard. It's a tightrope act. Because I always say that respect begets respect and that if a person wants to receive respect then they have to show respect just like if a person wants to have friends they have to show themselves as friendly. So if a person wants to receive respect and respect is earned you know it's not just because they are the XYZ of the ABC, that you automatically--you know but because of the relationship they have with others and how they engage and respect other people. So if I want people to respect me 96:00whether they are students or whatever, I have to first open up myself to give respect in order to receive respect. I always do that especially with students to say that my time is their time and if I want them to respect me then I have to approach them in a very respectable manner. First, they are human beings. They are important, they have value, they have worth. They have potential. They have this 'hope that's unborn.' Maybe that hasn't been tapped into and so I can learn from them and they can learn from me. It's a reciprocal kind of thing. I don't see it as I'm standing on this platform and I'm looking down upon the underlings but we're all in the same level. We're all in the same life's journey and we can learn from each other and I think that the system of hierarchy is 97:00okay in certain situations and circumstances because we can only have one president of the university, we can only have one President of the United States but just in the regular day-to-day interactions of human experiences I think we should cut through all of that and see each other on a human level. We can learn from each other. We can give and receive something and everybody has something to contribute. So we look at a person from their perspective and not look at them as some people--I've heard the term the 'lowly freshman.' Well you got to start somewhere.

Cook: I've never understood that.

Herndon: You can't start off from high school and become a senior in college so whomever, the president of the university, the president of the country, they all had to be a freshman. Everybody had to be a freshman some time so it's not a state of lowliness but it's a--

Cook: Step--

Herndon: That's right. It's a beginning. I always hare--I don't like to use that kind of terminology--the lowly freshman or even--because even though that person is a freshman, they could teach me a whole lot about computers. They could teach me something--I mean I know some freshmen that come here--they know how to build computers from the ground up. So who am I to say because this person doesn't have any credit hours they don't have anything to contribute. I've had some life lessons I've learned and some things I can share with them and also they can share some things with me that I don't know anything about. People just have to rethink the way they interact with people and how we treat people. I was always taught to treat people the way you want to be treated. If you want to be treated with respect, you give respect.

Cook: I also like the way--I guess it is my perspective as an older student but 99:00some students still want to slide by and do as little as they can--like in your class and how you handled that when students in Maymester, weren't showing up when there weren't many classes. I liked how you demanded respect.

Herndon: I also want to show them they're not only hurting themselves, you're cheating yourself. I don't know what it is now. I'll have to recalculate it. But based on last years tuition for every class a person missed it's like taking $62.00 and basically throwing it out the window or flushing it.

Cook: Do you know I told my daughter that and she said that was one of the most important things and that when she would get up in the morning she would think that's $62.00.

Herndon: Just think about in the whole scheme of things with tuition and fees for every class, Monday, Wednesday, Fridays or Tuesday/Thursdays classes and of course Tuesday/Thursday classes cost more because it's only two times a week but the Monday, Wednesday, Friday class, that's $62.00 for every class missed and 100:00you think about for example getting back to family and parents and the sacrifices that certain families are making. Some people are working two or three jobs, taking out loans--

Cook: That's a lot of money to me!

Herndon: Right! That's a telephone bill or a light bill that could be paid or something or food--!

Cook: Or money you won't have to owe. I told my daughter $60. That's a good thing to tell students. I wanted to ask about your church community in Blacksburg.

Herndon: Okay. My church community here in Blacksburg. I'm a member. Well, I'm actually not a member of--but I attend. They treat me like a member--St. Paul's African Methodist Episcopal. That's where Dr. Pendergrass attends. I like that. It's a good church, small, community oriented, family oriented.

Cook: I'd like to go sometimes. Mrs. Cook has been at least once that I know and she just really liked it.

Herndon: Very good people, warm. They greet you and it's the kind of place that 101:00they want you to come back. I like it. I've gone there since I've been here.

Cook: So that's Methodist and Episcopal?

Herndon: Yes.

Cook: What's the community that you belong to in Farmville?

Herndon: At home I belong to a Baptist Church. Actually I'm a bonafide, official, if you want to call it that, member. This is your regular traditional Baptist church. It's an independent Baptist Church. It's not associated with any particular denomination. Its called Race--like running a race--Race Street Baptist Church.

Cook: That sounds familiar--Race Street--I don't know why.

Herndon: I have to go in a few minutes because I have to meet a student at 3:00.

Cook: Okay. How about are there any other things you'd like to bring up that I 102:00haven't asked you? Have we covered everything? We've done pretty well.

Herndon: We've covered it.

Cook: Alright. How about this one? If you could briefly address this. What problems pertaining to African Americans do you thing the University should address?

Herndon: In a nutshell. I guess, in short, the University needs to really focus on recruiting and retaining. They both go hand-in-hand. Don't bring more black people here until those people who are already here feel comfortable enough and satisfied to the point where they can tell their brothers and sisters and other black people back at home or their high schools, their cousins, you need to be at Virginia Tech.

Cook: It's a good place!

Herndon: It's a good place to be. It really is a good place. I'm not saying that recruitment efforts shouldn't go on. Yes, it's a both/and situation while we are 103:00recruiting more people to come here we need to bump up the retention efforts. What can we do to keep those who are already here? As we are doing it we are recruiting people but as people become more satisfied with the University experience then the recruitment effort will be easier. Word of mouth is the best kind of advertisement. So they need to do that. One of the things I'm concerned about that has troubled me and this is a whole other session but I'll tell you about it in a nutshell. Some of the people here on campus, the white people, some of the white people who are on campus, who are opposed to whatever kind of recruitment or retention efforts of black students. Some of those people, some of those same ones are hollering and yelling in Cassell Coliseum at the football team. Why is it that the football players can find Exit 118 off of 581 but other students who would fit in well with Virginia Tech, they don't find Virginia Tech but they find JMU, they find William and Mary, they find VCU, they find some of 104:00the other schools. What are those schools doing that Virginia Tech isn't doing? So on the one hand, it's really a contradictory kind of situation where some people have said we don't need to be doing this and we don't need to be doing anything in terms of affirmative action because it's not right. They think it's reverse discrimination but none of them are fussing or complaining about the disproportionate amount of blacks being on the football team. I have nothing against the football team. I love the football team. I know a lot of football players but it's a contradiction. So in a sense, they're saying if the black people do come here they should only perform for the University on the athletic perspective but they don't highlight or look at the greater possibilities of 105:00people who want to come here purely for academics. I think that the University could do a better job of recruiting and retaining. I know that the President currently has that as one of his top goals and initiatives. I'm glad that he's here to do that and I also thing that other black people need to embrace that initiative and help with the recruitment and retaining. It's not what the University can do for you. I'm not trying to pull off a 'John Kennedy' kind of statement but it falls along the lines of a John Kennedy statement. What is it we are doing for ourselves and doing for the University to make it a better place? It's not going to become a better place overnight without any hard work. That's why I want to stay here to be in the trenches to see the evolution of success at Virginia Tech.

Cook: Good comment! Thank you, Professor Herndon