Oral History with J. Homer Pack, March 13, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is March 13, 1991, and I'm conducting an interview with J. Homer Pack of Riner, Virginia. Mr. Pack, can you give us a brief sketch of your life? Your birthdate, birthplace, education, and occupation?

J. Homer Pack: October 10, 1910. I was born here in Riner, Virginia. Raised here. Went to school up here and worked in Roanoke for a while, in Blacksburg for a while, and then I went to the Radford Arsenal. As best put it, I'm a brick man.

C: I see.

P: But I had a hard time getting back. Now, I've been back for a long time but 1:00it took a lot of bussing and grading sand to get, but that's what I ended up at. And I held that position for several years. And I saw quite a bit of changes in my lifetime.

C: For the good or the worse?

P: Oh, better. Couldn't have gotten-

C: Oh, you're talking about this in the context of a Black person.

P: That's right. Yeah, because I can remember very vividly when around through here, of course, there was no employment here for negroes. You couldn't get no job doing anything except at farm seeding time you could work on the farm. But to go out here to Christiansburg or Radford [inaudible 01:47] get a job there.

C: No way.

P: No.

C: Let me ask you about your family, a little bit about your family. Could you give us a little bit of history about your family?

P: Well, now my people all carpenters. My daddy and my uncle, they were carpenters.

C: What was your dad and your uncle's name?

P: My dad was Willy Pack.

C: Willy Pack.

P: Yeah, and my uncle was Jim Pack, Ollie Pack and Walter Pack.

C: Okay.

P: [inaudible 2:30]. My uncle, they went to work out of West Virginia because he would contract. And they all worked together.

C: So, your father would spend a lot of time away from home?

P: No, he stayed [inaudible 2:48], and then he came back and stayed here at home. And he farmed but my uncle-

C: Oh, your uncles were the carpenters?

P: And he was too. My dad was too.

C: But he just did it on the side?

P: Uh-huh.

C: But did he have a farm?

P: Yeah.

C: How big was the farm?

P: Oh, it was about sixty or seventy acres.

C: Oh that's a good size farm. Sixty or seventy acres. And how many sons and daughters did--oh you didn't tell me about your mother.

P: Oh my mother was a school teacher.

C: What was her name?

P: Bessy Pack. She was Bessy Louise.

C: Oh, Bessy Louise-

P: Pack.

C: Pack. And where did she teach school?

P: Up here. It was called the Pine Woods School.

C: The Pine Woods School. Could you describe that school? The size and the number of people who generally went there?

P: Well, when I went there, there was sixty-some students there. This was a big color population through here.

C: Well, it's really reduced-

P: Oh, my goodness yes. When they tore it down I think they only had ten to twelve children here.

C: When you went there about sixty?

P: Yeah.

C: Was it a one room or two room school?

P: Two room.

C: Yeah, that's too many for one room.

P: Yeah. That's all we had was two rooms.

C: Was she the only teacher?

P: No [inaudible 03:57] when i went to school.

C: I see.

P: But we had two teachers there when I went.

C: Do you remember their names?

P: Yeah there was a Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Marsh, and Mrs. Woods, a Professor Hanson, Professor Bouldin.

C: Was Hanson from this area?

P: Was Hanson what now?

C: Was he from this area?

P: Yeah.

C: Because I know there's some Hansons from Riner. Over near Calfee's [Knob] mountain over that area. Maybe I'm mistaken. Is he a Hanson from the Riner area?

P: Yeah.

C: Born and raised here?

P: Yeah, about three miles away from-

C: Oh, yeah. That's the area I was thinking about. That's where I knew the 5:00Hanson to be living. And all the other teachers, were they from this area?

P: No. Christiansburg, Pulaski, and something down in East Virginia. Buffalo [inaudible 5:14] springs. You know where that is?

C: No. [Laughs]

P: Well. I believe it's down in West Virginia.

C: Okay and how about some of the others? Where were they from individually?

P: Well two of them on over from Christiansburg.

C: Which two?

P: [inaudible 5:34] and--oh what was that old lady's name?

C: Was it Woods or something?

P: No, [inaudible 05:45] come Brown into the [inaudible 5:49]. She was from Pulaski. See I'm talking about stuff sixty years back.

C: Yeah that's a long time. You did a good job. I don't think I could have recounted my teachers.

P: [Laughs].

C: If I had the reverse role, I would have draw a blank. That's excellent memory.

P: Yeah, [inaudible 6:07]

C: Well, did they live in the community or did they commute?

P: Yeah they would board here.

C: They would board here. Where did they generally board?

P: Well, my mother would keep them sometimes and sometimes my wife's mother would care for them. My wife's mother's sister would care for them. You're talking about Tim Ever's wife going to school [06:30].

C: Oh, she taught here?

P: Yeah. Yes [inaudible 6:30]

C: Okay.

P: And they would just board with any family that would keep them.

C: Keep them. Would they commute on the weekends? Or say they would-

P: Most of the time.

C: Most of the times.

P: Yeah.

C: So they didn't stay year round?

P: No.

C: On the weekends. I guess, Friday-

P: Fridays they would go to Pulaski. They would go home.

C: That's understandable. Were they married?

P: Some of them were. Some of them-Professor Giles' wife when his wife got to school here. Of course, I had [inaudible 7:04]

C: Was she boarding here?

P: Unh-uh. She would go back and forth because she drove to Christiansburg every day.

C: Some of them had cars, some of them didn't. I guess the majority didn't have a car.

P: That's right.

C: That's interesting. Talk about going to school. Was it very far? Are you living in the same home as you were raised?

P: No, I was raised about a quarter of a mile up the road.

C: Okay, so this is-

P: And then I had about a three-minute walk to school.

C: So, it wasn't too bad?

P: Oh, no. The distance from school wasn't too bad. And incidentally, after they closed the school, the school board was gonna sell it, and I bought the property.

C: So you bought the-

P: [Laughs].

C: Did other people have longer walks than yourself?

P: Oh, yes. Yes, several. Some of them had go up about over four miles.

C: Where were those people living?

P: Well, I don't know if I can ever make you understand how far. They lived almost into a little town called Snowville, [Virginia].

C: Snowville. I read about that. So, they must have lived near Snowville.

P: Yeah, but they had to walk here to school.

C: Good grief. They didn't have a school in Snowville for Blacks?

P: There were no Blacks over there.

C: But it was near Snowville?

P: Yeah, they lived right near Snowville. Somewhere down here on the--the creek on the other side of [inaudible 8:45] what they called down Law Hill [08:45]. No school down there. They had to walk. Now, incidentally, there were white people living practically in the same community, but there were busing down there to pick those children up. But, now, the Black couldn't ride the bus.

C: So, even people living in the same vicinity, depending on your race, one rode, one walked.

P: There you go.

C: Depending on what race you were-

P: That's right.

C: Be born.

P: If your face was white, you could ride. If you're Black, no.

C: Keep on walking.

P: Keep a walking.

C: Well, how was the class? Was it disciplined? I mean, was it noisy? How did the teach-

P: No. No. They really were strict.

C: They were strict.

P: They had to be because they had too many children in the way. You take thirty kids with one teacher, and thirty little kids along with the other teacher over there. They had to keep them pretty strict if they could taught them anything.

C: I gather. What about the parent involvement? Were the parents involved in the education? Did they go to meetings like the PTA-

P: Oh, yeah.

C: Like we have today? Did they have a personal involvement in the schooling of 10:00their children?

P: They did, yeah. The teachers couldn't get along. But they really stuck with the teachers. Now, the child had to mind that teacher. They were strict on them. My parents and other people's parents were, too. You didn't want your teacher to go home and tell your parents something that you did.

C: Or you would really feel it?

P: You'd pay for it.

C: [Laughs]. You'd feel it.

P: Yeah, which was good. Which was good.

C: So people learned from that experience?

P: From that experience.

C: And learned many things. Discipline and-

P: And the book too. [Laughter]. Yeah.

C: Okay, that's interesting. When you finally got through with the schooling in 11:00Riner, did you have an opportunity, or did other Black people like yourself during this time, have an opportunity to go to high school to get more education?

P: If you could pay to go to Christiansburg.

C: You had to pay?

P: You had to pay to go to high school.

C: Okay, you had to pay the board or what? Or, did you have to pay for transportation?

P: You had to pay for transportation. You had to pay the school over there. Now it wasn't run by the county. See, the county didn't have a colored high school.

C: Okay at this time, Christiansburg Institute is not a public school.

P: No, it was a-

C: Private school.

P: Private school owned by the quakers from Pennsylvania, Philadelphia. And you had to pay. My first cousin up there paid fifteen dollars a month. At that time, fifteen dollars was a heck of a lot of money.

C: Especially for the people who were not all that well to do.

P: That's what I'm saying.

C: That sounds like a lot of money to me for that time period.

P: It was at that time period. You could pay a hundred and fifty dollars, now, easier than back then paying fifteen. Just to show you the difference, I was telling you about my grandson. He was talking about time. He said, you can't save too much money now. He said, time, everything is so high. I said, [inaudible 112:35] Same thing. I said, they did the same. I said, let me tell you, I used to buy a pair of overalls for a dollar. I said, now you buy a pair of overalls at fifteen, eighteen dollars. Just pay [inaudible 12:47]-

C: That's true.

P: I said, I had to work ten hours to make the dollar. When you work eight hours, you done make thirty-five, forty, fifty. I said, so don't tell me that you can't save. [Laughs]. Things have changed.

C: Yeah, sure have.

P: So, yeah. I worked. When school was out up here, when I got about fifteen years old or something--fifteen to sixteen--when the school was out, I got a job at a poultry farm out here. Ten hours for fifty cents.

C: Ten hours for fifty cents a day?

P: Yeah, fifty cents. But let me tell ya something-

C: Would a white work for that kind of money?

P: Yeah.

C: They would, too?

P: They would've too. I was lucky. I was one of the lucky few. I got that job. But when school got ready to take up that fall, I had bought my school clothes, and that saved me thirty dollars because I didn't take a bottle of pop nor a pack of [inaudible 13:56]. Never nothing. I saved thirty dollars and bought my school clothes.

C: Now, that's dedication. How did you get to school physically? Did you walk or 14:00did you-?

P: I could walk there in two minutes from my house to school.

C: No, I'm talking about to Christiansburg Institute.

P: Oh, the only way you got there was you had to go [inaudible 14:26].

C: And was this too far away to commute?

P: It's ten miles from here to Christiansburg.

C: I know. [Laughter]. I just drove over here.

P: And so you had no car at that time.

C: So, did you ever go to Christiansburg Institute?

P: No.

C: You never did?

P: No. My wife did.

C: You're wife did.

P: I didn't.

C: What was her maiden name?

P: Jones.

C: And her first name?

P: Angie.

C: Angie Jones.

P: Um-hm.

C: And she went to Christiansburg Institute?

P: Yeah.

C: Okay, so you didn't have that opportunity.

P: Unh-uh.

C: Did many people in this area have the opportunity to go to--when you were growing up, not talking about like your brother. Your brother, he came. He said, you're the old man of the family. But he said he'd went to Christiansburg Institute.

P: [Laughs] Oh, yeah. Because we had a bus running by that time.

C: Yes. But at the time you were going, there was no bus.

P: Yeah, no bus.

C: So did anybody in this area go to Christiansburg Institute?

P: She went, but she had an aunt in Christiansburg, so she stayed with her aunt.

C: Oh, so she had a unique situation?

P: Yeah. And then there was my cousin up here. She went.

C: Which one was that?

P: Ollie Pack's daughter.

C: Ollie Pack's?

P: Um-hm, and his son went, too, over there.

C: And what Pack was that?

P: His name was Ollie Junior.

C: Ollie Junior?

P: Yeah, they went to Christiansburg Institute, but he paid for them to go. Now 16:00my sister went there, but she left. She went to Roanoke, and went to school there. And in Roanoke finished high school in Roanoke. She went to Petersburg, and that's Virginia State.

C: She went to Virginia State there from there?

P: Um-hm.

C: And Petersburg, they had a Black high school.

P: Yeah.

C: In fact, I understand that the only Black high school was, I guess during your time, was probably Petersburg and Christiansburg Institute. Those are probably the only two from the southwest to all the way over to the east. At least to the Richmond area.

P: I don't think--well you're talking about Virginia.

C: This was before the Roanoke because Roanoke, I guess, hasn't had it--.did they have a high school by the time you were in high school?

P: Yeah, she finished high school in Roanoke and went to the college here.

C: So maybe about that time they did have one in Roanoke?

P: Yeah, they had one there.

C: But, still there's a long--from Roanoke to, I guess, Bristol there was 17:00nothing. Other than Christiansburg Institute-

P: Other than Christiansburg.

C: Yes, that's the only one.

P: Yeah because at the time that the white man was going to Christiansburg, let's see. Floyd County, Montgomery County, Giles County, and Pulaski County. None of them had a high school. They bussed them all to Christiansburg.

C: Did the counties bus them or people in the community?

P: The county at the time bussed.

C: So the various counties said, we'll pay for the expenses if people want to go.

P: Yeah. But now-

C: But not this county didn't seem-

P: No they didn't because it just had them right here.

C: Not for the longest time.

P: That's right.

C: I think later on they did. They eventually would have a bus going from 18:00Blacksburg to Vicker, [Virginia] and-

P: Christiansburg.

C: Christiansburg. Eventually they would. But not during your time?

P: Unh-uh.

C: No bus service at all?

P: No. No.

C: At all?

P: My wife she drove the school bus from here to Christiansburg for thirteen years.

C: I see.

P: She hauled them over to the Institute.

C: Well, talk about your jobs that you've had. Since your education was cut short because of lack of educational opportunities, what about jobs in this area? What kind of jobs did a young man like yourself could hope to get when he got out of school?

P: Nothing but farm work. That's all I could get. See, there were plants in Radford. There was the extract plant. There was a pipe shop. [inaudible 19:07]. 19:00To work there. They didn't have no boys. You had to be a big old rough man to work there.

C: So, even if you were twenty-one, do you think, if you were twenty-one years of age, could you still have gotten a job here? Or would it have been difficult?

P: Been difficult. And then you got what the white man didn't want. Right up here the family of people that live right up here, and their daddy [inaudible 19:40]. The daddy worked at the pipe shop. He worked there for twenty or thirty years. And they had what they called the dinky which run and haul the stuff [inaudible 19:53] to be melted, and it was something like a train, you know. The dinky-

C: Just like they had in the mines. There are dinkies there, too.

P: Well this here is more like a locomotive, but a little one.

C: Yeah. That's what I was telling.

P: Yeah so, Fred, he worked until he got to be a brakesman on it. Of course, he run it. He could run it too, but he could never be allowed to hold that title of the engineer. If the engineer died or if the man got sick, Fred could run it until he got better. If he died or quit, they could pick out another white man. Fred could teach him how to drive it, but he couldn't drive it. That's facts. Over there where you talked to my brother, his wife's daddy who died ninety-eight years old there last year, I think he-

C: What was his name?

P: Edward McDaniel.

C: Edward McDaniel?

P: Yeah. He worked at the pipe shop, and they used to what's called [inaudible 21:02] you pull your cord down here, and you put the sand in there [21:07] to make a pipe. And you had to feed it. It was steady going with the shovel. Some 21:00guy came up and he put an electric motor on here and it would do that. And this guy said, look here. When you finish that thing, he told him, he said, you know I want that job. He said, oh that's not for you. That's a white man's job for you to push the buttons. [Laughs]. Yeah that was a white man's job to push the buttons but [inaudible 21:43] with the shovel that was a negro job.

C: The physical labor. The hard-

P: That's right.

C: Hard labor. That's the job that Blacks would get at that time during that period.

P: And speaking of when I first went to the arsenal, and I had a job 22:00opportunity. They said, we'll hire you. You can either have labor or janitor.

C: When did you get hired at the arsenal?

P: In [19]52.

C: [19]52. What were you doing during the war years? World War II?

P: That was in [19]40 what?

C: Uh [19]41-[19]45.

P: I used to do chauffeur work at that time.

C: Oh, you were doing chauffeur work. From what area to-

P: From Blacksburg. I just did friends and family [22:37].

C: Friends and family. What family was that?

P: The Heath family [22:42].

C: Oh, yeah the ones that own the farm? The area is now evolved to Heathwood.

P: Yeah, all that down there. They had fourteen hundred acres-

C: Who did you work with?

P: [inaudible 23:00]

C: Did you work with a number of other Blacks? Like Rice Dobbins or-

P: Yeah.

C: Amos Boffman.

P: Barthom, yeah. They worked on the farm.

C: Oh, you didn't work on the farm. You worked as a chauffeur. So, you saw them and waved at them.

P: Yeah, go right where they're working [inaudible 23:15].

C: How'd you get fortunate to get that job? Because that's better than being a laborer.

P: Yes. I don't know. [Laughs]. [inaudible 23:30] and stayed there seven years. Then I left and moved to the arsenal.

C: Better pay?

P: Better pay. When I went to the arsenal, they offered me and I said, well imma try labor. And I had it for maybe a month. But the supervisor there, he watched me all the time. But I don't know. I've always been just slightly hard headed. I can't help that. That's just me. And if anybody don't like it, they don't have 24:00to put up with me, but that's me. If you say something I don't like, I'll be ready to tell you, I don't like what you said. [Laughs]. I don't care if you're as big as this room. I say, I don't like it. So, he come to me one day, he said Pack, he said, you different than these other boys I got around here. I said, I know I am. I said, I'm not them other boys. This is Pack. [Laughter]. I'm not them other boys. And he said, well you don't belong. I said, what do you mean? He said, that's just what I mean. He said, I think I got something different for you. He said, how would you like to go to the [inaudible 25:00]. He said, they 25:00need somebody there to work in the shipping department to get [inaudible 25:02] ready, pack them, and ship them out to some flower [inaudible 25:08] he had. He said, there'd be more money for you. Well I'd been around there for so long, but it was like that pipe shop [inaudible 25:18] that had been a white man's job. I said, yeah I'll try that. He said, but you report there in the morning. Said, you don't belong with these boys.

C: That was unusual?

P: That was unusual.

C: What kind of money were you making before you went to this new position? I mean, how much did you get paid a day?

P: Sixty-five cents an hour.

C: Sixty-five cents an hour? Well that's almost one dollar a day. While fifty cents a day is what you once worked for. Was that a good salary for that time?

P: At that time.

C: Is that a salary they gave all people?

P: All Blacks.

C: Only the Blacks were getting that salary?

P: If you were doing labor, that's what labor paid, sixty-five cents.

C: Were there white laborers?

P: They had some there.

C: Were they paid sixty-five?

P: Yeah.

C: But most of the people doing labor were Black?

P: Oh, yeah. If they had a white guy that they didn't like-

C: If they didn't like them, they'd put them with you. [Laughter]. That's a sad comment. We'll put the riff raff with the Black people.

P: That's right. Now that's it. Yeah. And after things broke, I recall very vividly the phone call that day. I worked when I left that, I went on up there and they wanted somebody to be, what you call it, the exterminator. Go around 27:00the building and check for rats and mice and to handle poison. I had cyanide gas and stuff and they wanted me to handle that. And that paid a little more. So really-

C: How much were you making by that point an hour?

P: About $1.58

C: Oh were you making fairly decent money. What years are you talking about?

P: I really--

C: Still in the [19]50s? Or maybe in the [19]60s?

P: Maybe in the [19]60s. Then I kept that for a while and then I saw in the bulletin board this job had come up for [inaudible 27:47] repair. Now that's laying brick. We built things like silos to make [inaudible 27:56], and you 28:00can't imagine one brick weighs thirty-two pounds without any mud on it. It was a hard job, a heavy job. But then you just had to do the repairs. You had just had to keep the thing, the contractor built, I just got and keep it going. Brick run out, you put another one in. Things like that. Anyway, the other supervisor, I went there and said, tell them, whatever I want to. I'm putting in an application. I want to move up after that [inaudible 28:30] Pack. You don't want that. That was paying three dollars an hour. He said, [inaudible 28:40]. He said, you got the best job here. I said, you never get dirty, and [inaudible 28:45] help you, and putting out and checking the building. I said, [inaudible 28:52]. I wasn't getting dirty, too. I don't mind. I want that money. [Laughter].

C: Why do you think he was counseling you trying not to apply for a job that's 29:00going to pay more? That sounds kind of strange. Someone's, well you shouldn't really take this job that's paying more money.

P: But I would get dirty. That's what he was saying. He said, you get your hands dirty. Well, by golly who hasn't had their hands dirty once in a while?

C: Yeah. Especially someone raised on a farm.

P: That's right. So, I told him I said, no. Well, at that time, we had a union over there, and I knew if I applied for it first that he had to consider me. Either I would take him to the board. And I said, well I'm going to apply. There's my application right there. Well, he said, I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do. He said, I'll let you up there until you come back and take the same job back. I said, that's fine. I don't mind. I'm not going to come back and take my same job back. He said, I'm going to hold your job and let nobody have 30:00it. You can go there and come back. [Laughter].

C: I don't believe you went back.

P: I didn't never go back [Laughs].

C: You remember the supervisor's name?

P: Yeah, Deathridge.

C: Deathridge. His first name?

P: Uh. What is his name? [Long pause]. Ted Deathridge.

C: Did he think that that was a job that Black people shouldn't have?

P: He had never been a Black man's [inaudible 30:33].

C: That's basically why he was trying to wean you away from the idea of that.

P: Yeah, because I was the first Black laborer that ever laid a brick there. And when I left, I took another boy from Wake Forest. He used to mix mud for me, and I told him, I said, now I'm thinking of leaving. Now, I said, I want you to have 31:00this job because it was paying thirty-nine cents an hour.

C: Yeah that's good money.

P: I said, yeah you can do it. Don't tell me that you can't do it. And I want you to have it. And I kept persuading him. I said, I'll tell you anything you ask me. I want you to have it. And you know he kept it, and when he was ready to retire, he took in another Black boy from Pulaski and he got it today. [Laughter].

C: What is Milton's first name? Do you remember?

P: Raphel.

C: Raphel Milton?

P: Um-hm.

C: In fact I left from Wake Forest today, and I'd seen mailboxes that said Milton. So, that might have been one of the people you've-

P: Probably.

C: Probably is. Yeah there was a Milton that I saw a mailbox for.

P: Who did you visit over there?

C: Homer Sherman.

P: Did you?

C: I visited another Homer.

P: [Laughs]

C: And he said, hello, because he knew I was going to come over here. He said, yeah I remember Homer Pack.

P: [Laughs]. Yeah I know.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay, we are resuming the interview now. You were talking about-

P: Working at Wake Forest.

C: The individual who you helped train. A guy by the name of Raymond-

P: Raphel.

C: You said Grayfield?

P: Raphel. R-a-p-h-e-l. Raphel. Raphel Milton.

C: And, as you said, now there's another person. Since he's now retired who's now-

P: It's--I don't think--

C: But he's from Pulaski?

P: From Pulaski, yeah. And now you were speaking about Homer Sherman over there. There used to be a mine over there.

C: Yes. Big Vein and Great Valley-

P: Yeah. Now my brother and I--when they opened up they called it Blue Goose 33:00Mine over there--We [inaudible 33:15] and we transported that coal from the mine to the tip.

C: So, you were related to the coal mines too?

P: Yeah I worked there some too.

C: After you got off of work at the Radford or?

P: No, see, there was a gap in the work at the arsenal. When the war come down, they just shipped them out there. They just shut down.

C: So, after World War II was over, people lost-

P: People lost their job at the arsenal. So I-

C: Or was it the Korean War? For you cause-

P: Yeah.

C: I guess it was the Korean War?

P: Yeah. And it went on down. We went to hauling coal.

C: So you did that after the Korean war?

P: Yeah. And then I left there then. Well, I kept the truck and started driving. And when the arsenal opened back up, I went back to the arsenal.

C: So, how many years did you work in the arsenal?

P: For twenty-six years and seven months.

C: [Laughs] You knew it exactly.

P: Yeah. I was glad to get away.

C: [Laughs].

P: I had a lot of run-ins. Well you had to [inaudible 34:27].

C: Yeah. Were these racial incidents for the most part?

P: Well, I certainly took it that way because I figured all of them was against me. So if you said [Laughs], I come back at it. And by the way, it still works on down. I got a boy over there now and I got a girl. And they'll tell them, 35:00they say, I know you're a Pack, they said, by the way you talk. I said, you are [inaudible 35:03]. They said we were different, and we are.

C: So what's your son's name and-

P: Joseph William.

C: Joseph William Pack.

P: Yeah. Now twenty-something years.

C: And your daughter?

P: Elysia Nadien.

C: Nadien.

P: Um-hm.

C: Is she still a Pack?

P: No. She's married.

C: And what's her last name?

P: Black.

C: Black?

P: Um-hm.

C: Do they both live in the area or-

P: My daughter live right just across-

C: Oh, across the street from us?

P: No, cross street. Almost in my yard.

C: [Laughs] Almost in the yard.

P: And my son lives right up the road here. A little bit farther from the cross roads where you crossed.

C: Okay. I thought I saw a J. W. Pack was that-

P: That's him.

C: That was his mailbox?

P: And his wife has a brick house [35:52].

C: So everybody still living in the area?

P: No. Ethanael, now he lives in Radford.

C: Oh, he lives in Radford. That's right. Cause the Packs Ethanael Pack is from Radford.

P: That's right.

C: That's right. Okay, let's see. Did Blacks and whites get along well in this area when you were growing up? Did you have any incidents where people would call you racial epithets or were there fights or skirmishes or klan activity in this area?

P: No. When I was real small, they tried to organize a Klan here. I remember my uncle and them talking about it. Down here in a little place called Shelor's. It's a big [inaudible 36:45] over there. And they made up their mind that they were going to organize the Klan. There was a white man that lived about a 37:00quarter of a mile up there in a big farm. Bob Smith was his name, and he spoke out against. He said, if y'all talking about a Klan to bother them--he called them darkers--bother them darkers, he said, count me out. He said, they will kill you. He said, I'm not going up there and ain't none of my people. Don't join this thing if you're going to bother them. He said, they don't bother nobody. He said, so we got no right to bother them. So, that killed the Klan.

C: What uncle told you that story? You said one of your uncles told you that story.

P: Oh, Jim Arlie. They all talked about it here.

C: Okay, which ones have talked about it?

P: Jim Pack, Arlie Pack, and-

C: So this is common knowledge?

P: Yeah, this was known all around.

C: Do you have a general idea of when they were talking about forming a Klan movement?

P: Oh that was--

C: What decade? [19]20s, [19]30s or-

P: I would say early [19]20s.

C: Early [19]20s. When you were a very young boy.

P: Yeah.

C: I couldn't even call you a young man. You were just a boy at that point.

P: Us kids, of course, now we played with the whites here. We would have a fight or two, but it wouldn't amount to anything.

C: What kind of playing did yall do with your white neighbors?

P: Played ball.

C: What kind of ball?

P: Baseball.

C: Baseball. What about football?

P: Unh-uh.

C: This area is not a football region, huh?

P: No.

C: Other areas all they talked about was football and baseball, too.

P: Well now Wake Forest was known for baseball.

C: Oh, yes, and I heard great stories about that.

P: I can tell you some stories [laughs]. Over in Parrot, [Virginia] across from Wake Forest, they 39:00had a team over there. It was all white. Wake Forest had all Black. And they didn't even play, and they [inaudible 38:55] And this guy called some of them a name, and there was a girl there. Everybody called her brother and she hit him with a baseball bat. She hit deep too. [Laughter]. And asked did somebody else want some of this [Laughter].

C: Well, isn't that trouble.

P: [Laughs] That stopped it right there. Now, we had fights. Like kids, you know. It was just all over. Go on back and keep on playing.

C: Yeah, there was no adults got into it.

P: Unh-uh.

C: It was no Hatfield and McCoy [Feud].

P: No, it wasn't none of that [Laughter]. It's always been a pretty quiet community. And then we had white issues. Got in--Like when farmwork don't come in season, and we had whites come in here for [inaudible 39:58] come in here if you were a little bit behind. They'd help you catch up. You'd go and help them 40:00catch up.

C: You remember some of these people that would do this?

P: Oh, yeah. You take--one of the best guys around here to help the colored was Elborn Boblocket. You never called him and didn't come help. And drank himself to death. He was just a kind hearted boy. He really was. Well, he was the person that had a tractor through here, and Lord, he just kept busy.

C: Helping other people who didn't have that kind of-

P: That's right.

C: What kind of crops did people grow around here?

P: Oh, corn and wheat. You don't do nothing but corn. Well, now I haven't planted the hill. I have planted a little garden. The last tennet I had was a 41:00white guy. That white guy used to farm for me when I was working at the plant.

C: I see.

P: He would raise corn for me on the share. And when he died, that stopped it with me. It costs too much to--If you're not going in a big way, if you can't put out two or three hundred acres, don't fool with a little bit.

C: Yeah, it just wasn't worth it.

P: And not worth it. So, I grass feed or mow hay and I'd feed my cow.

C: Did people also specialize in cattle raising, dairy cattle raising?

P: Oh yeah everybody here-

C: Black and white I guess.

P: Dairy farm.

C: Yeah because all I saw was dairy farm after dairy farm after dairy farm coming up this way.

P: When my boys were growing up, I kept a bunch of cows up here for milk, and I just come out and say, Now, all the milk you milk, you sell it and you keep the money. I'll feed the cows. I'll buy the feed and feed the cows. But you got to 42:00do the milking for the money. And those little boys, they weren't always too happy, but it didn't cost me anything.

C: Good. They bought their own clothes and-

P: Yeah, they could make it.

C: Good.

P: And they work today, but they would mostly take care of themselves that way.

C: Well, that was a very good lesson you gave them.

P: Yeah. I said, all I want when the cow has a calf is make a good deal out of the thing and you keep the rest of the milk. I said, I'll take care of the rest of them. And when they got too big to milk--I saw them milk one morning [inaudible 42:45].

C: So you move from milk to-

P: To beef.

C: To cattle. Okay.

P: And I can handle that better. I just get up, feed. I got very good machines 43:00to work with. I go out there and sit on the tractor and mow the hay down. Sit on the tractor, I can rake it up. Sit on the tractor, I can bail it up. Get it on the tractor, and I don't have to get off and haul it up, hay off to pick up them bails. Just get on the tractor and back up to the bail and take the big bail and roll it out.

C: Still doing it, huh? Very good.

P: Very good. Eighty years old now.

C: Eighty years old and still doing it.

P: Still doing it.

C: You mentioned that there was corn and wheat in the past in this area.

P: Yeah.

C: Did you mill it locally or did you have to ship it?

P: Yeah, there used to be a mill right down-

C: Right down?

P: Right down here in Childress, [Virginia].

C: Childress. So you had to go to that area?

P: Yeah.

C: Did you have any problems with some of the whites?

P: No, unh-uh.

C: Who was the person that owned the-

P: Parmer.

C: Parmer. What was his first name?

P: W. B. [inaudible 44:03] Parmer.

C: W. B. Parmer.

P: Um-hm.

C: So, he milled it?

P: Yeah, he could make you flour. In fact, when you mill your wheat, he would store it in there and he'd give you a due bill. You knew how much it'd take to run through the year. And when you wanted flour just get one there, get a couple pounds of flour, and put it in the [inaudible 44:25] My dad did that all-

C: So, he just simply--he had an account? I mean, he'd given him the produce and he just simply acquired things based on what--he already had an investment there. So he just simply borrowed against his produce.

P: That's it.

C: Did other Blacks do that?

P: Oh, yeah.

C: That's what everybody did?

P: Yeah.

C: Was Palmer an honest person in terms of how he dealt with people?

P: Yeah because say you put in--I'll just use the term forty bushels. I'll ask 45:00him if he [inaudible 45:15], you know. I think thirty-two pounds of flour [inaudible 45:20] and so many pounds of grain and so many pounds of [inaudible 45:24] would come out of that bushel. He'd figure out there how much value he'd get. I went and got a hundred pounds in March. When I went back in April or May, I got a hundred pounds. Just keep check of it. You had a book, and he had a book.

C: So, it worked well?

P: Yeah.

C: Where did people shop when-

P: Well, there was a big store down there.

C: In Childress?

P: Yeah.

C: So that's where generally people did their shopping?

P: Most of them did their shopping. Either do that or go to Christiansburg.

C: Either that or Christiansburg?

P: Yeah.

C: What could you get in Childress? Everything?

P: Anything they had in Christiansburg.

C: Anything you wanted?

P: Yes.

C: Drugs? You know, non prescription drugs?

P: That's right.

C: Or pop? Soda pop?

P: Oh, yeah. And then-

C: Liquor?

P: No.

C: No liquor?

P: The liquor was sold back up the mountain over there [laughs]-

C: Uh-oh. Bootlegger, okay.

P: Yeah. But you could buy soups or coal. Bulks of cloth. Anything like that. They had just the whole [inaudible 46:33]. And my wife's uncle, he had a store in Radford. Practically the same thing. He had bulks of cloth and anything else. He had it in the store.

C: What was your relative's name that operated that store in Radford?

P: Ulysses Molton.

C: Okay, Molton.

P: Um-hm. Yeah, I can remember. He had that big store. He had a fine store down there. [inaudible 46:57].

C: Were there any other Black businesses operating in this area? Did any other people who lived in Pinewood have a convenience store, or cut hair, or did something on the side like that?

P: No. No. My daddy and her daddy too, they had a blacksmith shop.

C: So, they had a blacksmith shop?

P: Yeah. Yeah, and then, of course, as I told you about the [inaudible 47:40] they was busy, and take the time to [inaudible 47: 43] over to West Virginia. My uncle, he had a contract there, and he built thirty-two houses. He had one contract and built thirty-two houses. That was the biggest contract that I can recall that he had. I remember that.

C: And he lived in this area?

P: Yeah. He lived right up there with my dad.

C: What was his name?

P: Jim Pack.

C: Jim Pack. So, he was a contractor? Did he have his supplies and everything in this area, building supplies?

P: Just his tools.

C: Just his tools? He never had anything like that.

P: Well, now you take that church down in Radford, Zion Hill Baptist Church. Now, I was just a boy when I went there. He remodeled that church for them.

C: Was that a white church or Black church?

P: It was a Black church.

C: And he remodeled it?

P: Um-hm.

C: Is that church still standing?

P: It's still there.

C: Oh. I'm familiar with First Baptist-

P: On Virginia Street?

C: Yeah. I didn't know there was another one, another Black church.

P: Yeah, that's out there on West Rock Road. You go to-

C: On Rock Road, okay.

P: You go down and turn back on [inaudible 48:46] street.

C: Yes. No, I don't go there. I'm familiar with it. I go to another church in 49:00Blacksburg, but I've been through the area. And my wife, I think, went there one time to a service. I actually haven't been there, but my wife did.

P: Now what church in Blacksburg? Is that on Clay Street?

C: No, the one on Penn Street. St. Paul AME.

P: Oh, really?

C: Yeah. Yeah.

P: Good.

C: Yeah. That's my church. Well, let's see. Let me ask you a few other things. How would you describe race relations in terms of during the times they had desegregation in the schools? Of [Virginia] Tech and things of that nature. What was it like for people who were Black, the best you recall? Off the tape, you mentioned about Charlie Yates, and that you were familiar with some of the experiences that the first Black students endured. And also, you mentioned off the tape, too, about an unfortunate Black who went on campus and was chased by 50:00some of the cadets. A so called offense on his part.

P: [Laughs]. That was [inaudible 50:09] that they cut the stripes off his pants.

C: How did he get those pants?

P: Some of the cadets gave them to him. They were lenient. From graduating just had [inaudible 50:34] and he'd be nice to them. And they told him they could have them. They cut the stripes out [long pause] Once, I recall when I was in Blacksburg. Have you ever been to Merrimac?

C: I've heard about Merrimac, and I've never heard one good thing about it. 51:00[Laughter]. I've never heard one good thing about Merrimac.

P: I was out riding one day and I went down there. There used to be a railroad crossing down there, and you turn and go right back up by and come back on to what is [U.S. Route] 460, now. And they had an old country school there. And it was right on the railroad. And I turned up there and there's a whole bunch of kids out there, and they hollered to the--and said, we'd better get in the house. It's about to rain and here comes the dark cloud [Laughter]. I mean, I didn't pay them any mind. They're little kids like that. I went to Merrimac here this past fall. Got over there--.I don't know. You never was raised in the country?

C: No.

P: You don't know nothing about country either?

C: Not much.

P: But I like gingerbread, homemade gingerbread. I love it. But you have to have homemade molasses to make it.

C: Right, that's true.

P: And this guy, he makes molasses. And I knew his son, and I said, when you're dad going to make that molasses? He said, he's making them now. He said, in fact he got a bowl to put on today. I said, I'll walk down there and get me some. So, I went on down to his place down there.

C: Was he a white person?

P: Oh yeah. And, of course, this is in the last two or three years. Things have changed in Merrimac.

C: Yes. Hopefully-

P: Oh my gosh.

C: Because most of the stories I've heard are terrible [Laughter].

P: Yeah. And I went down there, and I helped take that molasses off. And I got a half a gallon of it. And then-oh hot molasses is real good. It's so sweet, you 53:00know. And he said, we all white [inaudible 52:55], we ate the molasses right out of the pot. Clean it, you know [Laughter].

C: Clean it out.

P: Yeah. And then he gave me the half a gallon of that, so another few weeks or so ago another boy came out here. His boy and my boy is great friends. And he come out and said, I sent your daddy some molasses. This year, he said he had a few extra, and he knew you was out. So, he brought me a can of molasses. [Laughs]. And his boy comes up there [inaudible 53:45] with my boys and he go and sit down and eat with them. But, now before when I was chauffeuring in 54:00Blacksburg, I used to go through there. After one white boy that worked on the farm with Amos [Boffman] and Rice and we all got to be friends. And that Sunday evening he said, come on, let's ride over to Merrimac. And I said, I don't want to go over there. I had a car. I had bought me a car. I said, I don't want to go there. There ain't gonna be nothing but a bunch of fighting. He said, I'll do your part of the fight, and we'll be fine. I said, all right then. I said, we'll go. So we got down down to the railroad tracks, and there they were. About eight or ten of them white guys sitting there, about half drunk, half a gallon of open moonshine sitting there.

C: [Laughs]

P: They was playing cards and shooting dice. And we pulled up and stopped, and one of them jumped up. He said, my God. Do y'all want to fight? This white 55:00bugger, he said, yeah. Let's get it on. And they went knocking on one another. Amos [Boffman] got nailed in the face, mouth bleeding, nose bleeding. Finally, that other one said, I got enough, you? He said, yeah. They cleaned themselves up and said, y'all want to drink? They said, come on and drink with us [Laughter]. But the fight was over. There wasn't another word said. When he pulled up there, one of them said, do y'all want to fight?

C: Yeah because that was their community and you were trespassing.

P: That's right. If you want to fight, we'll fight. But, now, I'll tell you what happened. I think more than anything I can think of in the world, it was Radford Arsenal. They got to hiring them people and they got to working with Black folks, Black folks got to working with whites. Not only for Merrimac, but for 56:00the whole Montgomery County surrounding.

C: And also, I guess, Pulaski with Perry because that's not even in Montgomery County.

P: That's right. But just everything that was around here in a forty mile radius, I'd say is here in a racial way. They learned that I can work with you and you can work with me. We got to get along.

C: So they learned tolerance?

P: That's right.

C: You had to depend on one another and-

P: That's it.

C: And that was not a totally safe environment that you're working in.

P: No. [Laughs]

C: So, interdependency had to come into play. You know, you had to depend on one another.

P: That's it. And at the same time, the wall, you know, the wall was going up.

C: Yeah.

P: And they learned that. And sometimes I think that wall was a God-sent thing to open up it's front. The world wasn't built for me. It was built for 57:00everybody. The good Lord didn't just say, now you got this. You're supposed to dominate this. That's not civil. You got just as much right here as I have. I got as much right as that other fellow over there. So, [inaudible 57:02] live together.

C: And so people did learn how to live together-

P: They learned how to live, yeah.

C: Well that's great. Let me ask, I guess, one last question. Two questions. Why did so many Blacks leave this area? Because you mentioned at one time, in the beginning of the interview, that you could have sixty or more students in a two room school building.

P: That's right.

C: And by the end of the time that you were around here, you saw it dwindle to probably a dozen people in a two room school building.

P: Well, they cut it back to one room.

C: And they cut it back to one?

P: Couldn't get enough children there.

C: What happened to the community?

P: Well, everybody as you--started to leave here to get to high school. They'd have to ride the bus to Christiansburg. When you got out of high school, you'd be back in that same old rut. Where you going?

C: For the lucky few who got employment in the Radford Arsenal, that was great. But what happened to those who didn't get it?

P: Well, see, at Radford Arsenal the fresh start wasn't there. So we had nothing. So we wanted to get out like one man I knew, you see, he left and went to Washington.

C: And that's right. He worked there for--he said twenty-five years, I think.

P: Yeah.

C: And what about other people in the community?

P: They all left. Some went to Washington. Some to New York. Some to West Virginia. Just [inaudible 58:47].

C: There just wasn't much employment?

P: Unh-uh.

C: And I guess farming got tougher for small farmers.

P: Well, it did, and you got so--[inaudible 58:56]. One of the big man, too, out here--this guy around here, he got four hundred acres. I think he and his wife. He don't have nobody. He doesn't need nobody. You get a machine to do-

C: Get to do what you do.

P: My grandson came in this month. He had out there thirty-one a beef cow. And he said, I've got off the riders, and he knew to damp this morning this morning.

C: Yeah this is a terrible day if you got arthritis.

P: Yeah.

C: I got it in my knee and I can just-

P: Oh Gosh. I hate it, and my wife has it too.

C: Yeah.

P: And he come out. He just jump on the tractor and he said, I don't want you out there, Paw Paw, he said, in the damp. And he said, go back to bed. Right on back there, no trouble. Used to be, now, that you had thirty head of cattle, 60:00take two men and half a day to feed them. You'd have to get a pitch fork and hay and stuff. We don't do it now.

C: With the mechanization, it means that the bigger people have a great advantage.

P: Oh, yeah.

C: So, small Black farmers became, kind of, obsolete.

P: Well, yes. And then-

C: Because some of these operations are big because I've looked at some of the farms. They just go--I don't know how many acres.

P: That's right.

C: I can't even see it. It's like over the horizons somewhere.

P: That's right.

C: [Laughs].

P: Well, if you're going to do it for a living, you got to do it big. Now, I do it more or less for a hobby because it keeps me from growing old. [Laughs]. I like it for a hobby.

C: As a hobby.

P: That's right.

C: Good.

P: Oh you can swap dollars and make a good interest on your money. But, you're 61:00not going to make no big money farming in a little way, but the man that's gonna farm big probably got five-six hundred head of cattle. He can handle it. We have one, well, we got two [inaudible 1:01:05] employed. Two [inaudible 1:01:07] boys that's doing real well farming. The Sanders Brothers

C: What are their first names?

P: James Sanders is one, and Randall Sanders is the other. One lived over here. And then one lived up here in what you called Willis in that end of Floyd, [Virginia].

C: Willis, okay.

P: And the other one lived, over in what you call, I believe that's called Copper Hill.

C: Copper Hill, I've heard of it.

P: Uh huh. And now he is really big. I suspect he's got six hundred heads of cows.

C: Oh, that's a big operation.

P: Oh, he's a big operator. Don't have no kids. Just he and his wife. Now [inaudible 1:01:55], we call him James, he got two kids. Two little girls, and both of them finished at Radford College [University]. I don't know what one, but one is teaching down in Willis.

C: I see.

P: I don't know what the other one is doing. But probably he got a couple hundred head of cow.

C: That's still a significant operation.

P: Oh, he's doing good.

C: Oh, that's great. Is there anybody like that in this county?

P: No. There's only two Black people in here that have cattle.

C: But, they're in Floyd County?

P: They're in Floyd County.

C: They're adjacent to you, but they're not really in the county.

P: Unh-uh. No. What was his name? Over there in Christiansburg. He got that trash truck.

C: A Dowell?

P: No.

C: Not Dowell. Not the Dowell's?

P: No.

C: They own the cleaning.

P: They own the cleaning. This guy run those trash trucks-

C: Oh, yeah. I've see-

P: Well, I'll be dog. Now you gonna think I'm going plumb crazy, don't ya? [long pause] Anyway-

C: Well, anyway, I can't even remember so-

P: Okay, well now he's got a bunch of cattle. I don't know how many that he's got. And his daughter--my nephew that build right up the road here.

C: So, there's still some. What about back in the past though? Let's say twenty-thirty years ago. Were there any Blacks who had extensive holdings of cattle then?

P: Yeah, had about nine or ten.

C: About thirty some cattle?

P: Yeah.

C: Not a lot?

P: No. Unh-uh. Several traveled right through here. Blacks couldn't get a hold of their own land.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay, we're back on the tape. You started to talk about that one of the problems that Black cattle men had in this area is that they couldn't get a lot of land?

P: No.

C: Why was that?

P: Well, now when I was a kid, just before my time here, they owned it all. But 64:00then times were real tight, and they could make more money. Most of them would go to West Virginia and work. Now there were lots of people down there. He had two or three hundred acres of land, but then she went to West Virginia. And they let the land grow up. And then when we came back, he cleaned out the land [inaudible 1:04:42] but he went to West Virginia to work.

C: Doing what kind of work?

P: In the mines.

C: In the mines.

P: Making big money. But he wouldn't take his kids in the mines. Some of them would drive down in there [inaudible 1:04:53] To go into farming, you had to buy this, had to buy that.

C: Just couldn't make ends meet?

P: That's right.

C: And be competitive?

P: That's right.

C: Was the other, larger operations, were so commercial and had the resources.

P: That's it.

C: Did people have problems getting loans from the banks and creditors to try to buy more land?

P: Well to tell you the truth, it was bad for both White and Black. I'll be honest about that. I was talking to a guy here the other day, and he was talking about--Well, he asked me how I'd been. I said, all right. And he said, Pack, said, I got to admire you. He said, you stuck with it here. I said, yeah. He said, now when I come here, he'd came here from down below Lynchburg. And he said, you know, I went over to the bank [inaudible 1:05:56-1:06:07]. He finally 66:00got his house paid off. And said that, I wanted to borrow twenty-five hundred dollars. And he said, you know, they wouldn't lend me that money to save my life.

C: Did he, in your opinion, really have the resources, the collateral, to really-

P: I think he did, but he wasn't one of the favorite sons. If you were in this circle, born in this circle, you could get anything.

C: If you were born in Black or born in White?

P: Well, Black people could borrow money. I went to the bank once. I had thirty-five cents in my pocket and I wanted thirty-five hundred dollars. Well, [he said], what you going to put--[I said], I got me. That's all I got, but I need that thirty-five hundred dollars. He said, well you can get it.

C: And so you got it?

P: I got it.

C: And you paid it back?

P: Oh, yeah. I got it when the mines opened up, I wanted to buy a new truck. No need to go to business with someone right then. Calm down. Just get ready to do business.

C: So you needed transportation?

P: I wanted that to buy that truck to put in that big dump truck to haul coal.

C: Oh. I was going to say thirty-five hundred dollars for a car? That sounds like a lot of money.

P: No.

C: So this is a dump truck?

P: Yes. And I told him what I'm going to do. He said, all right. He said, you're going to get it. And I said, the truck is what I said. So, when I got that, I got everything [inaudible 1:07:52], I said, now, I tell you. I said, I need a couple hundred dollars more to operate on. I said, I got to go for a month without any pay. You run a month, and you get paid for the first few weeks. He 68:00said, I'll let you have the money, but you're not getting another. He said, you ought to have at least five hundred dollars, and something could happen. And said, you'd be right back in a hard place, so if you get five hundred dollars, we can go ahead and operate. And if something breaks down, you can fix it [snaps fingers] and you tell him you got it [snaps fingers]. I said, I'll owe you five hundred dollars.

C: What bank was this by the way?

P: The First United Bank, Christiansburg.

C: Was there a particular banker you dealt with?

P: Um-hm.

C: That you had trust in?

P: Oh, yeah.

C: Who was the banker?

P: Paul Foster.

C: Paul Foster.

P: I said, I'll take the five hundred under these conditions. At the end of thirty days, all that I don't use, you take it back and don't charge me no interest for it because you got it right here. I ain't got it. Now, I said, then 69:00I'll just pay interest on what I had used out of the bank. He said, I'll play ball with you. Well, I said, okay. The miners, at two o'clock, they come out of the mines. That's as long as they're going to work. Well then that wasn't nothing. I couldn't afford to quit work, but I took a contract then to haul fertilizer and anything anywhere for Mitchell Sales Company. We go down here, a little place called [inaudible 1:09:42] hauling fertilizer and hauled it to Floyd. Anything to do [inaudible 1:09:47] and that's where we work. And then, seven o'clock in the morning, I'd be back over at the mines ready to haul coal.

C: When did you work on the farm?

P: Had to do that as you could. That's it [Laughs]. I wanted to get something. I wanted to try to do something.

C: So, you saved a lot of money for the purpose of your children's education or just simply to build up a farm. You might have had that incentive?

P: Had all that-what I wanted so I could be [inaudible 1:10:28-1:10:43].

C: No, doesn't sound like it.

P: Unh-uh. And I always remember what the supervisor told me when they gave me that go away dinner when I retired. He said, I guess you'll go out there and get 71:00you another job and go to work too, knowing you. By the way, [inaudible 1:11:03] by your watch I haven't been called in here to come into work. I was on call all the time. If something happened, they called me. If something happened in my department, that brick work-

C: Yes.

P: I've been called out there Sunday and all, they called.

C: So you still on call?

P: I was still on call. I loved it.

C: You still work on occasion?

P: No, not now.

C: Not now.

P: That was when I was working. I wanted to be on call because if you got called in now, when I got to the gate [inaudible 1:11:37] you owe me four hours of work. Now if I wanted to work [inaudible 1:11:42] that was an extra day. So that's what I wanted. I wanted the money.

C: That sounds good, good deal.

P: And he said, I guess you working and get another job [inaudible 1:12:00] I 72:00said [inaudible 1:12:04] for all of us to breathe [inaudible 1:12:06] what you doing, how to do it. I said, I was looking for this day, the day I come here. I said, it finally caught up with me. Then nobody gonna tell me what to do. I said, I'm leaving here well satisfied.

C: Well, that's very good. What did people do around here for social life? I mean, I know they worked hard. That's coming across loud and clear. What did you do for entertainment? I mean, what did people when you were growing up as a boy and as a man? What did you do for entertainment? We know you played baseball. What else?

P: Played baseball. Well now the church, everybody down here belonged to it. And 73:00the church had some kind of [inaudible 1:12:57] always.

C: Always. What was the name of the church?

P: Mt. Airy Methodist Church.

C: Mt. Airy Methodist Church. Is it AME or?

P: Unh-uh.

C: Just a plain Methodist?

P: Um-hm. United Methodist.

C: Who was the minister or ministers?

P: Oh good Lord.

C: That might take all day to name all of them.

P: [Laughs] You right. I can't even remember. In fact, we had [inaudible 1:13:19] from Alabama [inaudible 1:13:27] two pounds of whiskey came up from Tennessee, you name it.

C: Oh one other thing, did you have dances? What kind of music did people play? Would it be considered hillbilly or soul? What did the people listen to?

P: I don't know. I never was a dancer although after when I bought the school building and we would have a guy from Martinsville come up and he had a whole 74:00band and play and people [inaudible 1:14:10] get dances. But that was about it.

C: Okay, what was his name? [long pause] He was from Martinsville. What kind of music did he play? I mean how would you style it?

P: Now you know, I'm not a music fan. I just knew I would make extra dollars [Laughs].

C: Oh you were just trying to make-

P: [inaudible 1:14:40]

C: What kind of instruments did he-

P: Oh, he had a piano player, and he had a saxophone player, banjo, and a guitar, drums.

C: And a banjo? So, it was kind of hillbilly?

P: Yeah, kind of. The only [inaudible 1:15:02] coming out through the country.

C: And what was this place?

P: Right up here in-

C: This is your place? So you used the old school building?

P: Um-hm.

C: Okay, let me ask one other question, and it was going back to something I started off early and that was to Tim Mallory and Ray-- was it-- I'm looking back, Ray Taylor. Could you tell a little bit about those two individuals? Because they seemed to be very active in terms of trying to improve the educational opportunities for people.

P: Yeah, Tim brought the first bus over that was running through here for the Christiansburg school. Right through here and into Radford and then back to C.I.I. Tim and I guess Ray [inaudible 1:16:03]

C: Now, Tim was from what area? [telephone rings]

P: Christiansburg.

C: Oh, Christiansburg.

P: Excuse me.

C: We'll have to stop.

[Break in recording]

C: We were interrupted. You were talking about Tim Mallory. Where was he from?

P: I think Tim was from Alabama or Mississippi. He came here from down south somewhere.

C: He was not a-

P: A redneck? No, he's not a Virginian.

C: He was not a Virginian. What occupation did he have?

P: He owned a cleaning shop. Cleaning, pressing shop.

C: In what location?

P: Christiansburg.

C: Christiansburg. And he really helped educationally this area in terms of by providing a bus.

P: A bus. That's right. He made a little money here. Each person had to pay a little something to ride the bus.

C: But it was kind of a business, but it was also a service.

P: That's right.

C: It was a good service for-

P: It was a good help.

C: Because you didn't have a way if it wasn't for-

P: That's right.

C: His idea?

P: That's it.

C: What about Ray Taylor?

P: Ray, more or less, operated out of Blacksburg.

C: And what was his line of business?

P: He run the cleaning and pressing shop for VPI.

C: And did he live in-

P: He lived in Blacksburg.

C: Was he from this area?

P: He came from Tazewell, [Virginia].

C: From Tazewell? And he was, from what I could find, he was interested in educational opportunities for Blacks too.

P: Yeah, Ray was a fine fellow. Good [inaudible 1:17:35]. He had some [inaudible 1:17:41].

C: Nice homes. What area did he live?

P: Up there towards-you know where Piedmont pool is?

C: Yes. Yes.

P: Well, he lived up in that area.

C: Oh Nellies Cave?

P: No.

C: But I know where Piedmont is.

P: Piedmont is where there's a church. Well he lived back down there near the church up there.

C: Okay. I know where you're talking about.

P: He lived up in there. He had a boy and girl. His wife died and then Ray died. Ray died first and then his wife. [inaudible 1:18:25] a girl, a very pretty girl and I think she left and went up north, maybe. And soon, I found her and her husband split up and I don't know if she came back to this part of the country. [inaudible 1:18:45]

C: Okay, well I guess on that note, I think we've covered most of the ground and I'd like to thank you for your participation.

P: Well I'm glad you came by and talked to me.

C: I've learned a lot and enjoyed a lot. Thanks a lot.

P: Yes, sir.

[End of interview]