Oral History with William Burrell Morgan, February 25, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael Cooke: Today is February 25, 1991. I am conducting an interview with William Burrell Morgan. Who is known in this area as Burrell Morgan of Christiansburg, Virginia. Mr. Morgan, can you give me a brief biographical sketch of your life. Your date of birth, birth place, occupation, education?

William Burrell Morgan: I was born in Buxton, Iowa, August 20, 1908, which makes me eighty-three years of age in August. And my parents were from Virginia but they went to Iowa to live, and they stayed out there about twenty years. And I had a brother, S.B. Morgan, who was born in Iowa. I had a sister who was born before they went to Iowa. But my brother and I were both born in Buxton, and the way the town Buxton got its name was the man who owned the coal mine was named 1:00Ben Buxton. He sent an agent here to get people to go work the coal mines for better benefits in Iowa. My father was among the group that went to Iowa. So, we stayed out there until the mines worked out, and after the mines worked out, we moved from Buxton to Cedar Rapids. Cedar Rapids is where the quaker oats people live, a big meal out there. My daddy used to run a grain elevator for the quaker oats people. And he worked for a short time for the Argo Starch people out there in the tall corn country.

C: I've been there. [Laughter]. There's plenty of corn.

M: That's right. [Laughs].

M: So, we stayed there until my mother's health began to fade. And she said she 2:00felt like she wasn't gonna to live long--and she was from Iowa--and she wanted to return to Iowa for her last day. So, my father and my oldest sister-

C: She was from Iowa? Your mother was from Iowa or Christiansburg?

M: Actually, Blacksburg. So, she wanted to come back to Virginia, and I remember as a child when she used to sing the song "The Blueridge Mountains of Virginia." I heard her sing it so many times. I'm getting home sick. My brother was born 1914 in Buxton, and so after her heath failed, my dad said she wanted to come back and he would bring her back to Iowa. So we came back here to Christiansburg, and we came back here and immediately after World War I was 3:00over. And as well as I recall, I think I went up on the hill one year--I would call it the Hill--the school near the church there before I went to Christiansburg Institute. And my brother, of course, was younger than I, and he went to the Hill School, too. So-

C: So what years did they offer education for people at the hill school?

M: It went up to sixth grade.

C: Then after that you'd have to come to Christiansburg Institute?

M: That's right. Began with the seventh grade. It went to seventh to eleventh. They said that the seventh grade was called the preparatory for high school. We only had eleven grades at Christiansburg Institute. But they said that eleven grades at Christiansburg Institute was equivalent to twelve grades in other 4:00schools. So even if you finished at Christiansburg Institute, you could enter Howard [University] without taking an examination. That was one of our-

C: So, it had very fairly high standards?

M: That's right, that's right. See, Christiansburg Institute was a boarding school. And see the colored people couldn't go to these schools nearby, and children came as far as Washington, and Bristol, Virginia and even from Roanoke, a big city like Roanoke. They would come up here and spend the last year, say if they graduated from Christiansburg Institute, the standards were so high.

C: [Laughs] Were there discriminations? Were there other, similar schools? Was it a public school or private school or was there a lack of opportunities for Blacks in New River Valley, for instance? Were there other schools?

M: This was the only school this side of Roanoke, between Roanoke and Bristol.

C: [Laughs] Between Roanoke and Bristol?

M: Hundred and fifty miles for colored to go to high school. That's the way it was. [Inaudible 5:07] So, we was a boarding school. The reason for that was 5:00because the children, they wasn't in the school and [Inaudible 5:06] and it was too far to commute.

C: Yes.

M: So, they had to board at the school. In fact, that's the way I met my wife. She was a student over at the Christiansburg Institute, and that's where we met and got married April 27, 1927. [Laughs].

C: I hope I can remember. Let me ask you to back up a little bit. You mentioned your father went to Iowa. What was the reason for them going to Iowa besides trying to get employment. Was there-

M: The pay was better and the-

C: The pay was better? Why did they seek out Black? I also understand that the same agent seemed to be active in the Wake Forest area and was able to solicit and succeeded in getting people to go Iowa from to the Wake Forest area. What 6:00was taking place in that Buxton area that required Blacks from this far away?

M: The thing of it was, if I'm not mistaken, they paid, I think it was, ten dollars a week. They paid in Buxton. Where here in Virginia, they were paying about four or five dollars a week to work in the mine, so almost double the salary.

C: Was there a strike or something that took place?

M: There was a strike in Iowa that's when the men come here and-

C: So, they didn't have any workers for whatever reason.

M: That's right.

C: Were Blacks non-union or union workers in that or you just don't know?

M: I couldn't say. I couldn't tell-

C: You're not sure. Okay, well that's fine. It's better to not know then to say it in the-

M: I wouldn't say and make a guess at it. I would say they were non-union 7:00because of the whites wouldn't admit the negros to most unions

C: That's right.

M: Railroads, anything couldn't-

C: That's true. That is true.

M: They couldn't belong to it. Well, my dad went out there and he, I recall, he was-

C: Did the whole family go or did he go initially?

M: Well my mother and my sister-

C: So they both went?

M: All three of them went.

C: Okay, so all three of them.

M: My sister was one year old when they left. So, the three of them went. I was born in 1908 and my brother, 1914. So, my dad had very little education as people in those days didn't have much--well, a lot of them didn't have grade school education. He never went any further than about the third or fourth grade, but he had what you called mother wit. And the man-

C: What is a mother wit for those of- [laughs]

M: A mother wit is what the good lord gave you. You wasn't educated. You just had it in your head. You understand what I'm saying?

C: Yes. [Laughs].

M: Natural talent. So, this Ben Buxton asked my dad how he would like to be the postmaster in Buxton. He owned the town, and my daddy told him, I never went very far in school. And he said, I don't know if I can handle the job or not. So, Ben Buxton told him, if you take the job, he said, I'll see that you get it because this is my town. [Laughter]. It was 1905, if I can recall. 1905 Ben Buxton made him postmaster, which a Black man being a postmaster? Never heard of such a thing. So, he was always so proud of that. He was a president under Theodore Roosevelt. I worked with mail services, also. I was one of the under FD 9:00Roosevelt. My dad was postmaster under Theodore Roosevelt. When you get to be postmaster, they give you this big seal of the United States with your name printed on it and everything and the president signs it to be the postmaster. And my dad was so proud of it. He had it hanging up in our front room, hanging up on our wall in our front room because he was so proud of the job. And so they stayed out there, as I said, until after World War I. And my mother's health failed, so we decided she wanted to come back home. So we came back to Christiansburg. When I went to Christiansburg Institute for the ninth trade, that year my mother had a brother that lived in Detroit, and she wanted to go up and visit him for a while. We went to Detroit. I spent one year at Cass Technical High School. It's still up there in Detroit. I went up there one year. And so I came back here, and when we got back here, I was eligible for the 10:00graduating class over here. So, I have started my family and all. [Laughs] It might be a little comical, but I was out of school about fifteen years. And I saw that I needed more. My family was growing, getting larger. I had three children, and I saw I had to do a little better than what I was doing. So, I went to Christiansburg Institute and finished at the Institute. As I said, I had three of my children [who] were sitting in the front seat watching me graduate. A lot of people laughed about it, so after that I said I was going to try to get 11:00into the mail service like my daddy did. I took the examination and passed it and was a railway mail clerk. I worked there for about thirty-eight years.

C: What area? Where was-

M: I worked from Washington to Bristol on a train.

C: Oh, I see.

M: Yeah they called it the railway post office. You've seen those-

C: Oh, yeah.

M: So, I run on that for thirty-eight years, on the road. My wife, we had this little business for forty-eight years, and my wife--I'd be away from home sometime a week at a time--and my wife would run the business for me.

C: What was the business, by the way?

M: Burrell's. That was the name of it. Burrell's Restaurant. And I had a taxi service. Oh, I didn't tell you about the taxi service, too. I had an uncle who was a taxi man here. Incidentally, the name Morgan in the taxi world is at least 12:00a hundred years old. I can trace it that far. My uncle Henry was a taxi man many years ago when they had horses and buggies.

C: So Henry Morgan?

M: Henry Morgan. I messed his name up. I wanted, like most kids, I wanted to drive an automobile. I told my dad I'd like to drive a cab. So after we went to Detroit, my mother had this brother in Detroit. I told him about my desire to drive a cab, so he told me, he said, I'll see what I can do. He said, we'll go right down to the Ford place, and I'll get you a brand new car. And he said, half the car is going to belong to my sister, he said, but the other half I am going to sell you. He said, you're going to have to pay for yours. So, I was 13:00tickled pink with that. So, that's why I got into the taxi business.

C: You still kept up your job with the railroad?

M: That's right, yeah. In other words, see, when you started out, you started out as a substitute. You just go when they call you. It would maybe be a week or two weeks before they even give me a trip. So, I had to have something. The family had to eat.

C: Oh, I see.

M: My family got a pretty good size. Then I moved into this building over there, just as the depression hit, I moved in at the meantime. We owned the store where color people--they couldn't go into these white restaurants to get a sandwich or nothing like that, you know.

[Break in recording]

M: So I had the only place that negros anywhere, well between here and Roanoke, that negros could come and sit down.

C: There was no place in Blacksburg like that?

M: We had a little dance hall downstairs. They'd come down and play piccolo. We had two or three live bands to come by. I had the entertainment center of the Black race.

C: In fact, I talked to somebody else and said that you had people from all over. What kind of music did they play? Was it bluegrass or was it all kinds of jazz?

M: No. Never heard of bluegrass. [Laughs]

C: Never heard of it?

M: No. Not in that time, I mean. They played like Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington. These people-

C: Were they professional type-

M: You heard of Duke Ellington have you?

C: Yes.

M: He been on VPI not long ago.

C: Yes.

M: He was a wonderful man.

C: But he came to your club?

M: Oh no, no, no. He never did that.

C: [Laughs].

M: I had his records on the machines.

C: Oh, I see. What kind of caliber musicians? Were these professional musicians that would come on occasions?

M: Well, my wife had a brother who lived out near Bluefield, and he belonged to a band and got a family up there. He got them to come down here--and ordinarily we couldn't stand a big band like that--we got them to come down here. And one of the colored bands in Roanoke, Lockliear was the name of it, and they enjoyed coming up here as much as we did having them come. So, we didn't have no trouble getting the band. Maybe they'd come by once a month or something like that. And we had a cultural center and a bunch of [inaudible 15:42] outside of the churches, the only place colored folks had to come to was to my place of business. Come to Burrell's. We're going to Burrell's tonight. Or we go up there and have a good time. And ain't nobody had anything, just a little money. Put a 16:00nickel in a [Inaudible 16:01] and enjoy yourselves. In other words, the white man forced them to build my business because they couldn't go in these places.

C: Did you sell beer or alcohol in these places?

M: One of the first ones in town to sell-

C: Did you have any problems getting that license?

M: No. See, the way it was, I used to sell Nehi beverages, sodas. And so when beer became legal, the Nehi man got the distributorship, and when it got legal, he came in one day with a canvas cover over his pop and beer was becoming legal. So, that's how he put my first beer and bought my first beer. I wasn't able to buy but two or three cases at a time. By the time he come back I ain't have enough money [Laughs], and that's why I had gotten into the business. If it 17:00hadn't been for the [beer] business, I couldn't stay in business the way things worked. It was the only place they could come and sit down and enjoy themselves. Anybody you talk to could tell you how strict my wife was. If you've ever met my wife, she's very strict. She didn't like to have no foolishness at all, and I always told the boys, if you come to my place of business, Imma let you know that, just like your mother or sister was in here. That's the kind of place we ran. My wife, she had a strict hand. One way we kept good on 'em, we had a list of those who misbehaved and didn't know how to act and get in trouble. And we black listed them and wouldn't let them come in the place for a year. Oh, it just killed them.

C: [Laughs].

M: It did! [Laughs]. I tell you, this boy come in there one time, and he showed 18:00off. Wanted to curse and use bad language and all that sort of stuff. So, we blacklisted him. So, he came up on there one day, and [the] boys come up there to my wife. And one of the boys said, let's go in Burrell's and get a beer. So, they all got out [of] the car and come on in, and this other boy sat in the car, you know. The boys turned around and looked at him and said, oh that's right you can't go in Burrell's can you? And you'd like to kill them. [Laughter]. Like I said we tried to run a clean place, no monkey business. We may made a lot of little hearts happy that didn't have no money. I said between my place outside of the church and the minstrel show called Silas Green that used to come once a year--those the two biggest entertainment people had in this-

C: Minstrel show called Silas Green-

M: Cialis Green from New Orleans.

C: [Laughs].

M: It was a clean, tent show. It was owned by colored people. In fact, the girl 19:00from Christiansburg joined Silas Green here, and she just passed last week. Anybody around here ask about Silas Green, you say, all I can tell you is Silas Green New Orleans. They had the show and they would come on down to my place and have a little dance down there. Like I said, nobody had them-

C: When do they normally come to the area? What time of the year?

M: About August.

C: About August?

M: About August. Yeah, because when they would come--that part of July--when they would come, I would always say, well the summer's gone now. Silas Green's here. [Laughs]. We really enjoyed it, had a good time off a little of nothing.

C: [Laughs]. Let me ask you a question that came up a few minutes ago. You 20:00mentioned that your father's brother and your mothers' brother both lived in Detroit?

M: No, my mother's brother lived-

C: Lived in Detroit.

M: That's right. Now, I went to [Inaudible 20:08] one year.

C: Oh, okay. Why did he end up living in Detroit? What was he doing? What kind of employment?

M: He worked at the millionaires club, had a uniform and everything. He was a bachelor, never did marry. He, I believe it was--actually I'm not sure--maybe it was Detroit Motor Club. But, it was a first class place. You had to be a member to come in it, and you couldn't get in it without it. My uncle wore his uniform, captain and everything all the time. He was the doorman.

C: Were there a lot of people in this area going to places like Detroit?

M: Oh, it was an exodus.

C: How did that happen and why were they encouraged to go to Detroit?

M: Segregation run by the South.

C: What were some of the problems that blacks were having in terms of unemployment?

M: You just couldn't get anything, and they didn't pay anything. I can remember when Henry Ford came out, and everyone talking about Henry Ford paid the four dollars a day. Never heard nothing like that round here. I had an uncle that worked on a farm around here that paid a dollar a day to work on a farm. Go to Detroit, work for four dollars a day. That was big money compared to what other folks had. The fellas worked on a farm a dollar a day and worked from daylight to dust. Wasn't no six o'clock quitte, no 6:30 quitters. You worked as long as you could see your work. The economic situation was definitely bad, so that means there was a real exodus to Chicago and Detroit, were the two of the biggest places. And they were just beginning to come back South again.

C: Were there incentives for people to go? I mean, besides the money. You mentioned that in the case of the mine strike in Iowa, industrial agents came down. Did they do that for other industries?

M: I can't particularly say yes or no on that. But, I would say so many people would go to Detroit, and then they would write back home and tell them, mom and dad look how good I'm doing, come on up. And a lot of them just bring their whole families. They didn't have nothing in the south anyway. They take the whole family and move up there.

C: So, word of mouth was the main advertisement?

M: That's right. That would be the biggest thing. People that you knew come in contact with doing so well, and there's people doing that right now, come from the South that I know.

C: Let me ask you another question. You said that you got a car. I mean, wasn't that unusual for a Black person to have a car that early?

M: Very true, very true. Wasn't too many white people that had one.

C: Was there resentment that this Black, that you-

M: No. See, I was giving cab service.

C: So, there was no resentment?

M: No. They didn't mind me being a servant.

C: [Laughs]. But if you had your own personal car just driving up and down the road?

M: That's different. There are some steps of resentment then. That's right. Seems silly, but that's the way it was. And-

C: Did you have Black and white clientele when you were-

M: Yes we did. My uncle Henry, he worked for Liverstay. I guess you know what Liverstay is.

C: Yes.

M: And they had horses, and he had two spotted horses, just the prettiest things you ever seen. And his duty was to drive from Christiansburg town to the station, to the station a mile from town. You know the-

C: Was it Cambria?

M: Cambria, that's right. See, Cambria actually used to be a separate town-

C: Right, right.

M: Christiansburg took it over.

C: Um-hm.

M: His job was to meet these trains and take passengers from the trains to the hotel. And these salesmen would come in like that and spend the night and next morning, go catch the train and go to Roanoke or some other place like that. His job was to meet those trains regularly. He was working for a white man which was fine, you know. I don't know how many years he drove, but he drove so many years that this man finally went out of business. So, he took it up on his own individually, and he already had the customers because everybody knew him. They called him Uncle Henry as a title of respect, you know. They called him-

C: Uncle Henry.

M: Yeah. They called him Uncle Henry to be respectful. They called him Uncle Henry; everybody called him Uncle Henry. And so that's what got me into the taxi business too. So, he drove until the last of the automobiles was coming. Like I 25:00said, this white man had this automobile, and he finally got one of [inaudible 25:10]. They had two at one time. So, that's the way he made his living until he died. He drove that cab. And that's what got me so interested. It'll take a youngster to drive an automobile.

C: So, the Morgan's have, you know, this long tradition you said.

M: One hundred years, if I can count that far back. In other words, you can go downtown and ask about Morgan's taxi, you talking about my brother. Because I've been retired--let's see, I retried in [19]78 from the mail service. And I drove a cab every morning. My brother took over. He'd been driving until he passed. He had a heart attack and just died one night [inaudible 25:55].

C: I have been driven by your brother. A couple times my car broke down [Laughter].

M: I bet you have.

C: So, I am very familiar [Laughs] with your service.

M: He said a lot of people--in fact, they might have put it in the paper. It said that S.B Morgan will be missed around here. He did that much good, you know. Made a living of it.

C: Was your business and your brother's business the only Black business in Christiansburg? Or were there many other Black businessmen?

M: Well, about the time I first started driving a car--my cabs because I drove cabs--I was about sixteen, I think it was. And there used to be a place out here on Radford Road called Charlie's Filling Station, and he was the first Black 27:00that I know who had any business to speak of. And he was in with some white people down in Roanoke. This recycling situation that was going on down there, you hear about it every now and then. This man was working for this man then. They used to get up and jump and step out from Bluefield and [inaudible 27:33] Roanoke. And this boy, he got all these white people and he would go around and pick this stuff up. He was the first negro that I ever knew that got junk by the carload. I mean, he'd get a whole railroad car. They sent an old railroad car to Pulaski with whatever he told them to bring in it. He built a filling station cause [inaudible 27:54-27:56].

C: Okay, we'll stop right here.

[Break in Recording]

C: Okay, we're resuming the interview. You were mentioning a Black businessman 28:00by the name--I think his name is Charlie.

M: Charlie Mathews.

C: Charlie Mathews.

M: That's right. He was the first and the only negro that I know of--Like I said, he was in the [inaudible 28:15]. He was in the recycling, that's what they called it. He would buy junk and ship it by the carload. Now he was with white people in the back. And he built this sterling station [inaudible 28:20-28:24]. And he built this filling station and sold gas out there. Like a drive-in, actually. That was something new around here. He would drive up. And he would cook up hams and make ham sandwiches. People from town would drive out there because it was the only place like that around here.

C: Oh!

M: And he had these two gasoline--I think it was two gasoline pumps--and people would drive out there in the evenings. They hadn't had food. And they would drive out here and buy these ham sandwiches and sodas and thangs. And that man-

C: He had white clientele? Black clientele?

M: Both. Oh, definitely.

C: White and black?

M: Yes, indeed. But whites were really the ones who give him the go cause we didn't have that much. We couldn't buy too many ham sandwiches, you know what I mean?

C: [Laughs].

M: And a lot of those people around here in town would, like I said, in the evening, they would close the store and would drive out to Charlie's and get a ham sandwich for the whole family and then go back home. But he was the first negro that I had known that had money like that with no education. Charlie, you know, didn't finish on the hill. It ended with the five grades up there. He didn't finish up there. But, he had a good charm about him, and he knew how to get along with people. He would pull his hat off and almost bow to the floor and [laughs] he knew how to get them. A white man was putting up the money and bagging it. And then of course he got his part out of there. Like I said, it was the only place like that we had around here. In those days, you didn't have 30:00those drive-in services.

C: And now, several.

M: All over the place.

C: I mean there's sever. I can name one in Roanoke, one on Radford, maybe more.

M: You know where our cemetery is?

C: Um no. Where is it at?

M: It's over in Radford. I was gonna tell you about where his place was. So, he was smart. That's what I said about mother wit. That's what I'm talking about. He had mother wit. He could make money. He could just look at a pile of junk and say, I'll give you so and so for it. And they'll say, oh, I can't take that. [inaudible 30:41- 30:44] but he'd get that junk, too. Like I said, these white people was backing him, and he'd be getting this stuff. Like I said, the only negro I ever knew that'd get the car and fill it up from the Railroad company. 31:00And he made so much money. He don't know what he made himself. And he had a wife and three children, and the pity of it is, when he passed, [inaudible 31:19-31:25].

C: Oh.

M: He would gamble. He would go down to Roanoke. And I heard boys say that he would go down there and gamble. When he'd win, he'd just stick the money down the back of his shirt. He wouldn't know how much money he had until he got home and pulled his shirt off.

C: [Laughs].

M: He didn't want all that money get away from him. Apparently, he had money by the thousands. I'll tell you, when he had passed-

C: When was that by the way?

M: What's that?

C: When did he pass?

M: I can't say the year. Let's see now--I say about when I was--He died before 32:00the [19]30s because I went into business in the [19]30s.

C: I see. This was-

M: This was before that. In fact, he kind of gave me a little idea about going into business. Cause, like I said, when my family began to grow, I had three children, and I didn't have enough living with my parents. So, I had to get out for myself. So I rented this--I don't know if you know what a taxi stand was--and I runned my cab from up there, and my wife lived upstairs. My wife said 33:00that she thought she could help me. And so in case I got a call or something, she'd come down stairs and run the store, and I'd come back and we worked it. This man I was renting from, he told me he wanted to sell me the place. I said, never mind, because I was scared to buy it. So, he got to the point where he needed to sell it to me or sell it to somebody. So I had to buy it. He forced me into it and that's the way I bought the building. So, I just bought the building. And he told me the downstairs was closed to the folks that'd been running. You know how folks kinda do things. They're going to run it the ground. And he got tired of fooling, and he told me why don't I open it up since I had my cab stand there. So, that's the way I had the cab business down there and the stool business too. In other words, we gave the color folks enjoyment and the pleasure that they couldn't otherwise have--[Inaudible 33:51-33:55].

C: What about race relations? Were there any racial incidents? Was there Klan activity in this area? Or were there any incidents that were kinda bad between 34:00Blacks and whites that you can recall?

M: Well, I can say generally speaking, we had good relations in Christiansburg. Some of these negros around here in our town do things that that they couldn't get away with further south, but generally speaking, racial relations were pretty good.

C: So there was no Klan-

M: Let's see. We had a parade in New Haven-

C: Oh, yeah.

M: Near Blacksburg, you know.

C: Oh, yeah but those were just outside.

M: That's right.

C: But no people were born in this area.

M: No, we didn't have any trouble like that.

C: Oh, that's interesting. Are you familiar with the mine activities in this area? You mentioned that your father worked in the mines. Did he work in the mines when he came back to this area or did he do something else?

M: No, no. When he came back here, he worked for the N.W. [North Western] Railway. He worked at the shops down in Roanoke.

C: Did many blacks work in the shops at Roanoke?

M: Yes, quite a few. But my understanding about joining unions, they wouldn't let them. No negros joined those unions. And you couldn't never be promoted. You worked-

C: So, you were always an unskilled worker?

M: That's right.

C: You never get semi skills.

M: That's right. You couldn't be a conductor or nothing like that on a train. You had to belong to a union to do that, and they wouldn't let you join a union. So, they had to let you stay right where you were.

C: Where did Black people mainly live in Christiansburg? Were there kind of areas that were kind of Black areas. Or, Cambria too?

M: Actually, where my place of business was the negro section. That was the biggest section.

C: On Depot Street?

M: That's right, Depot Street. You know where you are from that mill? You saw that mill that you come-

C: Right, right.

M: From there, there are two--one of the tower churches up there in [inaudible 36:15].

C: Up to Schaeffer [Drive] where the high-street.

M: That's right. See, Captain Schaeffer bought that property and the church and what they called the Hill school. He bought that land for us. That was [inaudible 36:32] the blacks' own Depot Street.

C: Didn't whites, at that time, still live near black people?

M: Some of them did.

C: What was the relationship between blacks that lived in that predominantly black area?

M: Well, they were acceptable and wanted to live accepted among them.

C: There was no trouble? There were no friction or incidents?

M: No. Your money would keep you safe here. But you didn't have the money to buy one of them houses, you couldn't have the money to buy the house what they 37:00called up in the park. You know where the park is?

C: No, no.

M: No.

C: Is that, the park, near the church?

M: It's on the way to the church.

C: It's on its way up to the church?

M: It's right off Main Street. They call it The Park cause of the lawyers and doctors.

C: Oh, yeah. I know where you're talking about. On the other side of--what's the name of the street that kinda runs--I forgot the name. Where they got them condominiums.

M: Yeah, yeah that's right.

C: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yes. You go through that street, and you'll be right on Main.

M: That's right. I say race relations here were very good all in all.

C: What about services in terms of when y'all need to have trash pickup or fire service or police protection or what have you? In the past, was there any problems?

M: Not that I know of. Paid your bills and you got your service.

C: That's good. Okay. When you had the beginning of desegregation with the 1954 38:00court decision Brown v. Board of Education, was there any reaction among the whites to that development? Was that felt through this community? Or, not much was said about it?

M: Well, yes it was something was said about it all right. [Laughs] But they couldn't help it. In fact, I know the man who was the superintendent of the schools here quit.

C: What was his name?

M: He's been gone now. What was his name.

C: But he quit?

M: Yeah, he quit. And some of the white people was teasing him about it saying, you running away from it ain't you? [Inaudible 38:57] And he quit the superintendent. He didn't want to face it. [Laughs] Yeah, they teased him about it. Wasn't no hard feelings about it. No more than usual, I don't think. You 39:00see, when they closed--I don't know if you've seen this little marker out here.

C: I believe I'd seen a marker, yes.

M: Go head and read it before you get in the car.

C: But, I've never read it; I've seen it.

M: You should read it. Several people come by and took pictures of it. It tells about Christiansburg Institute was closed in 1966, and it was built in 1866. It is a hundred year old boarding school. The funny part about it is now, when they 40:00first broke the thing down and decided they gonna have to have it, they wanted to accept this let you, by choice, if you wanted to come up to the white school you could. If you wanted to stay at the Black school, you could. That's the way they got around it. Just a few of them. A lot of them, in fact, were scared to go up there. That's the way they first got them both. It got along pretty good, come more and more. They wanted to integrate. They wanted to take Christiansburg Institute and integrate it. You know what the white people said? They said they wouldn't go over to the Black school.

C: [Laughs].

M: That's the way they felt about it. And they turned right around and sold this 41:00property and come right here and build a high school right up there. That was all Christiansburg Institute. Probably had 165 acres, and now you see all these condominiums and things. They offered to let the whites come over here or we come over there and then turned right around after they sold it and built a high school.

C: Is that property that the Christiansburg high school, is that part of the property that Mr. Schaeffer owned at one time?

M: Yeah. The Institute.

C: Oh, the Institute?

M: Yeah. Christiansburg Institute. See he-

C: But they didn't want to refurbish Christiansburg Institute or the didn't want to build on to it?

M: No, no, no. Like I said, they said you can come to us, but we won't come to you.

C: Which was nothing unusual at that time.

M: That's right.

C: Was there any politicians who, local politicians, who denounced desegregation in this area publicly? Orr were they fairly quiet?

M: I think it was fairly quiet, I would say.

C: The mayor didn't come out and-

M: No.

C: Except for the superintendent who resigned-

M: Resigned, yeah.

C: He was the only one who took a really kinda public stand?

M: Yeah there was a whole lot of under cover, of course.

C: That's interesting. Well, talk a little about social organizations in this area because you mentioned your establishment, the business establishment, and the churches. What about the Odd Fellows?

M: They were up on Depot Street, the Odd Fellows and the Ruths' used to be in the same place.

C: The Household of Ruth?

M: That's right. Just about a block from where my place is. It was right in there. Used to be a man, we called him Tim. He used to be a presser. Tim the presser used to have a presser shop. And another fella owned the store name Buck Clark. That was a little bit before my time. What I'm talking about is when I 43:00came around here. More or less, Depot Street was the epicenter of Black activity.

C: Could you talk about the activities of the Odd Fellows or some of the people who were the members of the Odd Fellows?

M: I knew my mother belonged to the Ruths and my dad belonged to the Odd Fellows and I never joined either one

C: They never signed you up for any-

M: No, I was asked to join, but I never did.

C: Is it still functioning?

M: No, I don't know exactly. I know they tore the building down, and I think Blacksburg--yeah Blacksburg--started coming over here. And I think now they are going to Roanoke. In fact, we had some up the church. The Ruth tried to build 44:00down there. That's right.

C: What kind of activities did they engage in with people who were connected with these fraternal orders, men and women organizations? What kind of activities were they into? Do you remember what your father and mother were involved in at all? Or you just weren't part of that?

M: Oh, I know they just went to the meetings.

C: You never went to the meetings?

M: No, we couldn't go in it.

C: They didn't allow children at the meetings?

M: Oh, no, no, no. They wouldn't have me. Yeah, once a year they'd parade and go to the church, one little church. I think they used to go to one church one year, one church the next year--Methodist church and a Baptist church. But, I remember they used to have turnout. They used to call it The Turnout once a year.

C: The Turnout?

M: Yeah, Turnout [Inaudible 45:00].

C: Really? I guess we have covered all the significant questions. Anything you like to add before we close?

M: Well, let's see I guess I took up an hour. You're familiar with the Institute?

C: Yes, I am.

M: I was gonna tell you. I told you about this book You Never Go Back To Buxton. It's in your library over there.

C: You Never Go Back To Buxton?

M: That's right You Never Return to Buxton.

C: Well, I'm gonna go to the library and find out about it

M: It's there. It's interesting. Let's see, I can't think of anything right now that might be of interest.

C: Well, I know you will get back to me when you think of something

M: Oh, yeah.

C: I'd like to thank you for your cooperation.

M: Put a little light on.

C: Yeah, you've shed a lot of light on. Thanks a lot. Okay, we'll end.

M: [inaudible 46:07] when the change was there.

C: Well, that's the most important.

M: I told you this picture was taken in Buxton. This was my daddy's dog. See that rope there? My daddy used to run, he used to run [inaudible 46:20-46:24]. This dog here was so vicious. He's got that rope like to tie horses over there.

C: Yeah, that's a big rope.

M: He used to jump. He would jump over top of this fence and go out on the road and kill other dogs. That's the only thing they could do with him. My mother got her hand ahold of him trying to keep him from getting away. Terrible forever.

C: [Laughs]. Well, I've enjoyed it, really enjoyed it. Thank you for your help.

M: Oh, I hope I've given you a little something.

C: You have. Well, we'll end on that note.

[End of Interview]