Oral History with Rosa Thomas Holmes, March 13, 1991 (Ms1991-019)

Michael A. Cooke: Today is March 13, 1991. I'm conducting an interview with Rosa Thomas Holmes of Christiansburg, [Virginia]. Mrs. Holmes could you give us a brief biographical sketch of your life, your birth date, birthplace, education, and occupation?

Rosa Thomas Holmes: I was born in Beckley, West Virginia, October 8, 1913. I finished elementary school in Christiansburg, Hill School, and then went to Christiansburg Industrial Institute. After graduating [inaudible 00:31] after ten years went to Virginia State College and maybe finished 1956. After I got out of that job as soon as I got out of school, I went to work in Florida. I taught there two years. Then I went to Blacksburg and taught for two-

C: What school did you teach in Blacksburg? In what school did you teach in Florida, by the way?

H: It was an elementary school, grades one through eight.

C: Okay, what was the name of that school?

H: Harriet Heart's School.

C: Okay. Was that a Black School?

H: It was all Black.

C: How big was it? Was it one room? Two rooms?

H: No, it was about five or six rooms, great big building.

C: That many Blacks lived in Florida?

H: Um-hm.

C: How did the students get to that location?

H: They mostly walked.

C: Walked.

H: Only a few buses running through.

C: A few.

H: Um-hm. [inaudible 1:21]

C: Then in Blacksburg, where were you employed?

H: At the Blacksburg Grade School.

C: Okay. Where was that located?

H: Let's see. It's right off of-- Let's see-

C: Right off of Main [Street] or Harding Avenue?

H: Harding Avenue.

C: Okay, the Harding Avenue School.

H: Um-hm. You know where it usually is.

C: Yes. Yes.

H: They remodeled that. That's why I taught two years and never came back [inaudible 1:45].

C: Which was located where?

H: Way down [U.S. Route] 460. You know going to Blacksburg.

C: Okay.

H: Up there [inaudible 1:58] then I went to Blacksburg Margaret Beeks Elementary School. That was going to [inaudible 2:02]. And then they put me in the 2:00Blacksburg Middle School [inaudible 2:06] until I retired.

C: When did you retire?

H: I forget the day. I think it was [inaudible 2:13]

C: Okay.

H: [Laughs]. I think 1978

C: Okay, 1978 when you retired.

H: And after that, I retired before her cause he got sick, and after that we spent a lot of time traveling.

C: I see.

H: California, all around.

C: Oh, good. That's what you should do.

H: Canada.

C: Yeah that's one of these days.

H: That's right. [Laughter]. I was going back to California this year. We went in [19]88. [inaudible 2:51-2:57]

C: I see. Could you talk about your family and your upbringing?

H: Well, we lived out in the country about two miles from Christiansburg.

C: In what direction?

H: Oh, I don't know. South Franklin Street.

C: South Franklin Street. Like you're going to Pilot, Virginia. Was it part officially of Christiansburg, or was that incorporated at that time?

H: Part of the county.

C: So it was really in the county.

H: Yeah.

C: It wasn't really in the town. But it's just outside-

H: Outside.

C: Just a few.

H: Outside of it. [inaudible 3:35-3:39] My mother had thirteen children. About six of them passed when they were babies.

C: Did she raise you, essentially?

H: Um-hm. After my father got killed in the mines, she kept [inaudible 3:49]

C: He was killed in, do you know what area in West Virginia?

H: Beckley, West Virginia.

C: Beckley. Was he a union member?

H: I don't remember.

C: You don't remember.

H: See what Annabelle said he was old when he got killed.

C: I see so that must have been real rough on your mom.

H: It was. And we were looking forward to Christmas. [inaudible 4:07]

C: Oh. Oh. Oh.

H: It was awful.

C: Oh. Were you notified prior to that-

H: That it had happened, um-hm.

C: You were notified that it happened? Oh, that's awful.

H: It really was.

C: I keep interviewing people, so many people that had lost their legs and so many people--I've talked to two people whose father's legs were amputated because of mining or quarry related injuries. And I've also talked with people who lost a lot of new people in, let's say Wake Forest has lost a lot.

H: Yeah, a lot of them dead.

C: So it was a tough occupation. People didn't have many opportunities and took what jobs they could get. So what did your mother do to support all these children?

H: She got a pension from her father then she washed and lifted clothes. And as 5:00soon as we got old enough, [inaudible 5:08]

C: Did you have relatives in this area?

H: Um-hm.

C: Were they originally from this area?

H: Yeah, all of them.

C: Were they born in the Christiansburg area?

H: That's right.

C: Can you recall something about their own family, their own parents, your grandparents. Do you remember your grandparents?

H: Yeah, I remember on my mother's side. My grandmother--cause my grandfather died before we knew anything about him. And they were raised as farmers.

C: Farmers. Do you know anything going back to slavery times about your family?

H: No.

C: You don't know that.

H: I'm sorry I didn't get all that information before he passed.

C: Oh sometimes that doesn't happen-

H: You don't think about it-

C: We don't think about it until it's too late. And that is really important. Well, talk about your growing up in the Christiansburg area. How did you entertain yourself? What schools did you go to? How did you get to school?

H: Most of the time, we walked. And then after-

C: You walked from virtually from?

H: Right down there on South Franklin [Street].

C: South Franklin [Street].

H: [Inaudible 6:17]

C: I can visualize that. That's about--cause where you were--that's about two and a half miles.

H: Miles yeah. When me and Henry finished there, we go to the Institute, we walked through there. Then someone with [inaudible 6:31] they would taxi us the rest of the way.

C: And who would you normally get to take you by taxi?

H: My cousin Mr. [inaudible 6:43]

C: Okay. For a reduced fee?

H: That's right, reduced.

C: Oh, that's good of them [Laughter].

H: That's right. See they were in the family too.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

H: So, we got a reduced rate.

C: I was just pressing all the angles here, maybe you got a reduced rate out of this.

H: Sure did.

C: Very good. Very good. That's what family should be about.

H: That's right I think so.

C: Yeah. So did you ever have to deal with people taunting you when you were walking? Did whites throw stones at you or holler racial epithet?

H: Just one. Just one or two we had trouble with. Most of the trouble we had was with the Blacks. They would make fun of us because we lived in the country, and they were some of them lived in the country too. Some of them used to tease me so cause we walked from where we live to school. Crossed country and all and they never did finish elementary school and we continued on.

C: And you continued on. Were you the only one in your family to go on to college?

H: I'm the only one that finished college.

C: Did the others get through high school?

H: My sister is the one who [inaudible 7: 45] finished high school. [Inaudible 7:47-7:51]

C: That's really tough. Well, could you talk about your years at the elementary 8:00school, high school? Do you remember any teachers? Or things that stand out in your mind about that experience at the Hill Street School and then later on at the Christiansburg Industrial Institute?

H: Well, one thing about the Hill school, the teacher looked like she had--it was kind of crazy--she liked the people who lived in town, especially if the parents were teachers or something like that. And it looked like common folk [inaudible 8:24]. You could tell it's not how you treat a human being.

C: So, it was kind of a class distinction.

H: That's right.

C: Well these people came from the country. They don't have much. They don't know much. They will never amount to much. So I'll spend my time with people who will.

H: That's right. That was the [Inaudible 8:37-8:43]Cause when we got over to the Institute everyone was treated just fine. I enjoyed it over there.

C: Talk about the institute. What was unique about the institute in terms of the people that were there, the teachers that were there, even the principal?

H: We had some of the very best teachers you can find around. They were there. The principal was excellent.

C: Who was the principal at the time?

H: Oh, Mr. Ian Walker.

C: Mr. Ian Walker.

H: He was very good. He got along very well. Of course, a lot of the time you disagree with some of the students, but I stayed on the honor roll most of the time.

C: Now this is the time you were an older student?

H: Um-hm.

C: Cause did they have a lot of older students? You were married at this time?

H: No, I wasn't married until after I finished Christiansburg Institute.

C: Oh, so you started and had to, what? Stop?

H: No, I went straight through. I worked for this white family.

C: I see.

H: And went to high school. Then four years after I finished high school I got married.

C: I see.

H: Then ten years after I got married, I went to college.

C: Oh, that's when you went to the college. That's right.

H: I felt kind of bad then because at that time we didn't have many old people going--there was a few--but now there's plenty of older people going to college.

C: Well, tell us about your husband's support. And what was your husband's name, 10:00for the record?

H: It's Zimri S. Holmes.

C: And you said he was supportive of, when we were off the tape we talked about--before we got on the tape that he was very supportive of you getting a college education cause he felt that you could be a--

H: A health representative. He knew I was qualified to go, so he sent me. And he would come down to see me on the weekend sometimes. But sometimes I'd go to Christiansburg on weekends.

C: I see. Did he pay for the tuition and everything?

H: He paid for [Inaudible 10:37]. The first two years he paid for everything entirely himself. And the next two years, during the junior and senior years I told him I thought it was too hard on him. I got a job working at the printer store on campus [10:49].

C: I see.

H: And I helped out.

C: So did you have children at the same time?

H: No.

C: This is before you had any children?

H: [inaudible 10:57]

C: I see.

H: So I stayed there and worked. And he would come down to the [inaudible 11:03]

C: No, i'm not familiar with the West Virginia State--

H: Just Virginia State.

C: Oh, Virginia State?

H: Virginia State out in Petersburg.

C: Oh you went to Virginia State?

H: Um-hm.

C: I thought you said West Virginia.

H: No, Virginia State.

C: I was going to say, I thought Bluefield was where-- I mean not Bluefield. I forget the name of the area. So, you're in Virginia State? I had in my mind was West Virginia and I said, Peter's town? Petersburg? No way. Okay Virginia State you went there. You didn't go up to--

H: That's right I went down. Virginia State.

C: That way.

H: And all I could, I used to get lonesome there. Made a lot of friends.

C: Was transportation easy to get back and forth?

H: We used to ride the train.

C: You would ride the train.

H: Um-hm, a car was too expensive.

C: What was your experience? Was it integrated seating? Or did you have to endure segregated seating?

H: It was segregated on the train.

C: If you went through the cars, were the white cars better than Black cars or?

H: I never got that chance because when you get on, they tell you which way to go. They say right to go to the white car and left to the Blacks.

C: No one ever knew if it was better or not. What about service? Was it fairly good?

H: Yes, it was very nice.

C: And reasonably priced?

H: Um-hm. That's why I could come home all the time.

C: That's good. That's good. Okay-

H: [inaudible 12:25]

C: Would you want to describe racial relations in Christiansburg and Montgomery county during the period that you were--? This is before Brown vs. The Board of Education. How would you describe racial relations or any incidents or experiences such as in restaurants or theatres that stand out in your mind?

H: Not especially except you couldn't go--the whites always went down on Saturdays to the [inaudible 12:54] theatre.

C: How many theatres did Christiansburg have?

H: They had two. They weren't at the same time. At one time we just had one. Later on they had two. [inaudible 13:08]

C: I see. Where were they located?

H: Right down Main Street in Christiansburg.

C: When you went in to see a movie, run me through what would happen if you wanted to go see a movie?

H: We knew where we was supposed to go. You you had one door for the Blacks, that's to go upstairs, and the other door to the left was for the whites, that's downstairs.

C: And that's what y'all would do.

H: Um-hm.

C: Well was the seating as good as the seating downstairs as best you could tell?

H: I guess they were the same other than we were up high-

C: Up high. What about restaurants? If you wanted to go out to eat, if for instance-

H: You couldn't do that.

C: You couldn't go to white restaurants and sit down?

H: No, they would let you if you would go upstairs or around to the back door [inaudible 14:03] fixed you a sandwich. Most people didn't bother with it. One time we had two Black restaurants for people to go to.

C: Okay, talk about those two Black restaurants.

H: One of them was Mr. Thomas Payton. He operated one along with his child and then later, on my cousin-

C: Where was his club?

H: On Depot Street.

C: On Depot Street.

H: My cousin operated a restaurant in New Orleans [14:28] He always had good food cause his wife could cook

C: That's his wife? What was his wife's name?

H: Lucille [inaudible 14:38].

C: Oh so it was in the family?

H: In the family, yeah [Laughter]

C: Well, okay.

H: He had a lunchroom and taxi business. And that's where he lived. He didn't try to go after the white peoples restaurants.

C: Yeah, that just makes sense. S. B. Morgan's place you can go in and sit down.

H: Yes you could.

C: And receive good service.

H: That's right. You could. You didn't get too many racial [inaudible 15:10]. We did what we were supposed to do and accepted it.

C: Where did, basically, Black people live in this town? I mean, if you had to say, what were the major communities where Blacks lived in Christiansburg and maybe just outside of Christiansburg?

H: Out in Radford Road.

C: Okay, yeah.

H: Depot Street.

C: Where the Lesters lived?

H: Um-hm, out that way.

C: Okay.

H: And out on Rock Road. That's where you [inaudible 15:38]

C: Um-hm.

H: And down here on Kamran [Street].

C: Right.

H: And Depot Street.

C: You could follow on Depot Street all the way around.

H: Um-hm, that's right. Then that's about it.

C: What about Mud Pike?

H: Yeah, Mud Pike.

C: Any others?

H: Down on Railroad Street, down there-

C: Oh, yeah.

H: [inaudible 15:58] That's about it.

C: That's basically. You mentioned that you grew up on South Franklin. Were there a number of Blacks living out there, or were there very few Blacks?

H: Very few. Just a family.

C: Just a family. Did your family own any land out there?

H: No, white people owned most in that section.

C: How many acres do you-

H: I don't know.

C: Ten maybe?

H: More than that.

C: More than ten acres?

H: Yeah. Verna, do you remember how many acres on-

Verna Thomas: I don't know maybe six or seven.

C: Oh my god. Excuse me, I shouldn't be cursing on the tape.

H: [Laughs].

C: Sixty or seventy acres?

H: Yeah.

C: Sixty or seventy acres.

H: Cause my grandfather had so much land. When he passed, he left about thirty or forty acres to each one of his children. He had quite a few of them.

C: Who was your grandfather again?

H: His name was Thaddaeus Morgan.

C: Thaddaeus Morgan?

H: Um-hm. Left all that land to his children. And S. B.'s father, my mother's half brother, I reckon he bought over a hundred acres of land and finally they 17:00[inaudible 17:02]. They just own that area out there.

C: So, all that development where I live in, they probably owned it at one time or another.

H: I don't know exactly where it is. You on South Franklin?

C: Yes, South Franklin on Mulberry. Just past that electrical station, substation, there. And they have and about two or three blocks past that substation is where I live, and they have all these--it's a subdivision of houses.

H: [inaudible 17: 27]

C: Where did it start? [long pause] That's nice land anyway you look at it.

H: Yeah, it is.

C: Cause I'm familiar with--if you go all the way down past where I live there is still good land.

H: It is. It was nice.

C: In fact, there are subdivisions off on that part of the land that I know if it's not my subdivision, the one beyond it is definitely was probably part of 18:00the Morgan land. Had to be.

H: That's right. [Inaudible 18:02-18:10]

C: Yeah, especially, I guess you're worried if something happened. Let's say you had a medical emergency or something, how would you get help?

H: Oh, we would walk to town. We didn't have a telephone or anything.

C: What about electricity?

H: No electricity.

C: There was no electricity?

H: No water.

C: No water? I'm going to ask a real dumb question. Was there paved streets?

H: The main road was paved.

C: Oh, that actually was paved? Why do you think so?

H: I don't know I guess so many people lived far over there.

C: Going towards that college so they wanted to have it paved so you get to plow.

H: [inaudible 18: 41]

C: So, you had a paved street. Did you have sidewalks?

H: No. No sidewalks. [Laughs].

C: No sidewalks. But you had a paved street, no electricity, no telephone. What happened if you had a fire? I mean, if there was a fire in your community, could 19:00they really respond quickly and put out a fire or did you just let it burn, I guess.

H: I guess you would just have to let it burn. I never did experience anything like that, so I wouldn't know.

C: I'm just improvising here. [Laughter]. I'm just wondering how it was to live, when something happened, you know you have to think about these bad things-

H: You do, uh-huh.

C: And from time to time, they definitely happen.

H: It wasn't until we were grown up and going to high school before they had telephone lines up that way.

C: When did they first have electricity?

H: I guess that was after we had gone to high school.

C: Was this during the depression or after the depression?

H: Yeah.

C: So with rural electrification, that's probably when [inaudible 19:41] it's the first time you got any real electricity there.

H: That's right.

C: Was that true also for many parts of the town?

H: Yeah.

C: What parts of the town? Was any part of the town have any electrical service before the depression?

H: It was right in the main section.

C: Main section. What really is after during the depression and after it that the town got electric service. That's interesting.

H: Yeah, and I think my daddy or I think my husband, he always lived there in that section and they had electricity long before we did.

C: Was there any Works Project Administration work in this area?

H: Yeah.

C: Did Black people work on those projects? What areas did they work in? In terms of improving the community?

H: I think most of the time where you think like that.

C: So they would work on [U.S. Route] 460?

H: Um-hm.

[Telephone rings]

H: [inaudible 20:37] Verna, can you answer the phone?

T: Yes.

C: Okay let's keep pressing on here. Well we'll stop for a second.

[Break in recording]

C: Okay, we're resuming the interview. I was going to ask you if there was any Klan type activity in the area that you can recall?

H: Just what I heard about how they would intimidate the Blacks. I never did 21:00experience it myself. I was too young.

C: Okay, was there any action taken against certain Blacks that was kind of noticeable or noteworthy?

H: I don't remember any.

C: Okay. But you heard of them. What are some things you heard from other people?

H: That if you had any kind of problem, they would come around, dress up, and try to intimidate you and scare. But they didn't do any real damage, I didn't hear.

C: Off the tape, you mentioned about minister who was at Schaeffer-

H: Yeah, they wanted to get rid of him. He would leave and the Klan would go march in the church all night. But other than that, I don't remember anything at all.

C: The Klan in the Church?

H: Yeah [Laughs].

C: Okay. Did that minister leave?

H: Yes, he did.

C: That's interesting. Well, let me ask some more questions. How did people take 22:00to the desegregation of the schools around here? Were they vocally opposed? Were they vocally forward? Especially, I'm talking about whites in the community. And how about Blacks? What was their reaction?

H: When they first started talking about it, both sides didn't want it. I think just as much as one way as going to the other.

C: Why were Blacks opposed to it?

H: I don't know. They were afraid the children wouldn't get along with each other.

C: I see. They were just concerned about the type of friction that could have occurred and that would impede the educational process, obviously. What about whites? What was their reaction?

H: They were just as afraid as we were that it wouldn't work.

C: Do you remember any prominent white speaking publicly against?

H: They did quite a bit of that in the private meetings and things that they 23:00would have. They didn't want them to mix.

C: Was that also found and evident when you saw the newspapers? The editorials that said, this is a terrible idea?

H: That's right. They don't want it at all.

C: So, even newspapers were saying it.

H: After we got started, I think it went very nicely in this area.

C: When did it first start?

H: 1966 or [19]65

C: Who were some of the first children at or do you recall some of the first children that were part of this, I guess, experiment of integration?

H: My niece and nephew was one them.

C: Which one is that?

H: [inaudible 23:45] My sister Rita's baby. About that age, they started out in a white school. And they got along nice.

C: They never had any real bad incidents?

H: No.

C: So, then there after this experiment, they were just simply conducted at full scale.

H: [Inaudible 24:06] When I went to teach in a white school, I was afraid I wouldn't get along with the children. Because you know I got along at Douglas the white ones than I did with the Blacks? For some reason the Blacks wanted you to give the children grades just for sitting there looking at you. I wouldn't do it.

C: That's right.

H: I had a little [inaudible 24:23] on me. [Laughs]. But I always felt that I got along better with the white teachers than I did with the Blacks.

C: That's good. That's good. Let's see. Could you tell us about some of the social life that took place or church life? Which one do we want to start first? Maybe we'll start with church. The high road then we'll take the low road maybe. [Laughter]. Could you describe church attendance? I understand there was a second Baptist--it was called a second Baptist-

H: Yeah, they had a second Baptist church, and one time, they had quite a few 25:00Blacks in the area. But, after the young people grew up, most of them couldn't get anything but just, you know, menial jobs. Yeah, they would leave town. There was a fire in that church it just went down and fell down and it got torn down.

C: Just couldn't support three churches anyway.

H: No.

C: You have Asbury United Methodist Church. You have Schaeffer Memorial Baptist-

H: You had two Holiness churches.

C: That's right. What was it? Mount Zion?

H: Mount Zion and another one called God and Holy Faith.

C: Does that still existing?

H: Maybe there is something after the pastor [inaudible 25:41] but after that they didn't meet too much.

C: I see. I wasn't aware of a third-- I mean of another holiness church. I was aware of the other one.

H: It's on Holly Street.

C: Holly Street.

H: The other one here out on Depot Street. They were making [inaudible 25:53] chairs.

C: Oh they are? I hadn't notice them. But when I go back down, I'll look at them.

H: Look like they're building a nice size building.

C: Oh, okay.

H: And with [inaudible 26:06] integration. My church as well as the white would come to our church. We had a lot of Blacks going to white churches.

C: So, even the so-called Asbury United Methodist is not united? In terms of integration.

H: No.

C: In fact, I know that cause I've been there before and I've never seen a white.

H: [Inaudible 26:27] Schaeffer.

C: Yes, I've been there several times.

H: I don't remember seeing you.

C: Well, every once in a while, I'd come. I'm a member of St. Paul AME in Blacksburg, so I don't get to come that often. You got to support your own first-

H: You do, you really do.

C: And by the time we get finished supporting our own, there's not much left to go around.

H: That's right. But I taught in Blacksburg. I've been to St. Paul AME Church. Worked in Missionary circle over there.

C: Do you recall a minister by the name of Reverend Bishop.

H: Um-hm.

C: What was his first name?

H: Elmer.

C: Elmer?

H: Um-hm.

C: Could you-

[Telephone rings]

C: We'll stop here.

[Break in recording]

C: You mentioned Reverend Bishop. Now, were there ministers active in civil rights in this area that took an active interest in trying to bring about desegregation?

H: I couldn't remember one. The Reverend Bishop died before it started.

C: I see.

H: I don't remember even one.

C: Okay, well let me ask the last question, I guess, is what kind of social activities did people have outside of work? Were there clubs that people belonged to?

H: Some people had people club and things like that. They had a lot of dances.

C: Where would they hold the dances?

H: There used to be a place down on Depot Street called Burrell Morgan's Place. 28:00They would go ahead and have the best time there in the basement.

C: Would there be live music or jukebox?

H: Mostly juke. Sometimes they'd have live.

C: What kind of people would come to perform?

H: Just whoever would be in the area that they knew about that's pretty good and would pay them.

C: Okay, I think we have basically covered all the ground here. I can't think of anything else. Thank you for your cooperation.

H: I hoped I helped you some.

C: Oh, yes. Yes.

H: Well, I'm glad.

C: Okay we'll stop at this-

[End of Interview]